I went into Utility on a Song so I could use Expression with a Knob (instead of a pedal AND instead of using Main Volume 007 for internal Volume adjustments).

I’ve saved as many ways as I can think of—i.e. while in Utility and also in the Pattern and Song SAVE—but the Assign Knob 1 reverts back to its preset control function regardless. 

Am I missing a step? I’m guessing that changing it within Utility is technically the ONLY way to change it for use when Mixing in Song mode. Which is fine, I’m just trying to be sure I understand the architexture.

It’s not clear (to me) if you’re using the terminology correctly.

The STORE function is when edits/changes are placed in User memory in the MOXF.

The SAVE function is when data from User memory is placed in a file - an “All"/X6A, for example.

You have to first STORE something if you want to SAVE it. Any changes made that you didn’t STORE won’t be in a file you SAVE.

If you meant STORE instead of SAVE, then please detail the steps you’re taking so we can determine where the problem might be.

I meant STORE. I’ve used the STORE function after setting the ASSIGN 1 to Express in Utilities. When I come back to that SONG file after shutting down and go to the Utility menu the ASSIGN 1 is still showing Express. When I go to the Knob itself (after setting the selector LED to the bottom row where Assign 1 and 2 knobs reside) and turn it, the display does NOT indicate Expression. I’ve tried using Assign 2, just for kicks, and its the same.

muscarella - 17 March 2021 06:23 PM

I meant STORE. I’ve used the STORE function after setting the ASSIGN 1 to Express in Utilities. When I come back to that SONG file after shutting down and go to the Utility menu the ASSIGN 1 is still showing Express.

Which verifies the knob assignment has indeed been stored.

 

muscarella -

When I go to the Knob itself (after setting the selector LED to the bottom row where Assign 1 and 2 knobs reside) and turn it, the display does NOT indicate Expression. I’ve tried using Assign 2, just for kicks, and its the same.

If the MOXF is like my XS and XF, not indicating anything other than it’s ASSIGN 1 (or 2) is normal operation (the assignment is indicated in Control Assign for AS1/AS2 in Utility mode). The Current and Original values should be displayed.

The Knobs control the Parameters for the Current Voice. That means with ASSIGN 1 set to Expression, when in Voice mode the knob will control Expression for any Voice selected. In Song mode, it will control Expression for the selected Part, determined by which numbered button (1~16) is pushed.

Whether or not a Part will respond to Expression can be set separately for each Part in the Mixing via the Receive Switch setting. See page 119 of the MOXF Reference Manual, and page 69 for details.

I’m in Song/Mixing mode so I’m pretty sure the Receive Switch setting is indeed the culprit. If not, I’ll return here with details.

muscarella - 18 March 2021 04:30 AM

I’m in Song/Mixing mode so I’m pretty sure the Receive Switch setting is indeed the culprit. If not, I’ll return here with details.

If you still have problems, check the ASSIGN 1 Expression operation in Voice mode, and let us know what you find.

On the subject of Expression. I’m hoping Expression might make my life easier when Mixing Songs, provided I utilize it from the get-go.

I am too often wanting to raise the Volume of one or all tracks UNIFORMLY after I’ve “completed” the full Mix. (This comes up a lot for me cause I play live to MIDI back tracks and I find sometimes that certain SONGS are way too loud or way too soft in context with the rest of the set list but the MIX itself is right how I want it.) Being able to go through those problem Songs and simply adjust the MAIN VOLUME event right at the top of each track will I hope save me from the tedium of going through and tweaking each and every Volume event (especially things like fade outs that I may have sweated over to get just right.)

I’m supposing that the relationship between Volume/Expression is as close as I would get to “one-to-one” in terms of data values. Versus, say, adjusting the Voice Output level. Would you agree?

Several years ago I suggested a method of changing overall output level of a Song by using the Master EQ. The original thread with details is here:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/475505/

A bit less boost than I mentioned in that thread can be had by setting the LOW MID, MID, and HIGH MID Gains each to +2dB, and both LOW and HIGH (shelving) to +4dB. Make sure Q is set to “0.1” for all bands, and that the frequencies are left at default values. That will result in about a 6 dB boost.

Of course, if levels need to be lowered, negative values for Gain will accomplish that.

STORE the edited versions of the Songs. I suggest that the gain change be indicated in each Song’s name - adding +# or -# (where “#” is approximate dB) or something like that - so you can easily recognize the edited version.

Well, the Receive Switch check list for all Parts (SONG/MIX/EDIT) shows everything X’d.

Could the glitch be something to do with MIDI Receive Channels page? In Utility that displays 1, 16 and on the right side it’s set to ALL.

I will go over to VOICE this evening and see if the Assign 1-Expression problem persists when I’m in Voice mode.

I tried it in Voice. It kinda seemed to work. As to SONG mode. I tried things on my OTHER MOXFf and the problem seems the same in SONG mode.

I made sure that the OTHER knobs were doing their proper default activity. I’ve made sure the Voice in question has all it’s Receive boxes checked.

Since I’ve been having problems with random Volume level changes on both keyboards (due to humidity/salt air I’m pretty sure, based on previous experience) it occurs to me that this might be an additional manifestation of the same problem.

Just to be sure about something. If the Assignable Knob has Expression 11 assigned to it WHEN I TURN THE KNOB THE DISPLAY SHOULD BE SHOWING ME THE WORD “EXPRESSION: OR “EXP” or something, correct? Cause neither keyboard shows me that.

I now have a brand new MOXF6 and the Assign 1 Knob strangeness is exactly the same!

I am attaching some pics of the state if things on various displays just before I attempt an Overdub Record using the Assign Knob 1.

You will see that what is displayed in the midst of record for the Assign Knob 1 is some wholly other “INSB: efD/W” which I can HEAR it affecting as such while in Record and turning the knob which displays -63 and +63 and NOT 0-127. When I look at the event list I see Expression events in 0-127 format. 

I’ve tried turning to OFF the other Foot Controllers so that ONLY the Assign Knob 1 has Expression. I’ve tried putting them ALL on Expression along with the Assign Knob 1. If I assign plain old 07-Volume to the Assign Knob 1 it STILL shows “INSB: efD/W”

I have THREE MOXF6’s now, one of them is brand new out of the box. They are all doing the same exact behavior which MUST mean there is some simple explanation or a setting somewhere that is being overlooked.

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

muscarella - 24 April 2021 03:24 AM

[...] what is displayed in the midst of record for the Assign Knob 1 is some wholly other “INSB: efD/W” [...]

[...] If I assign plain old 07-Volume to the Assign Knob 1 it STILL shows “INSB: efD/W” [...]

What Voice (name/bank/number) is assigned to Part 8 of the Song for which you provided the screen shots?

Tenor Growl AF 1
Pre 5 / A11
Number 8 Banks 63/60

muscarella - 24 April 2021 05:51 PM

Tenor Growl AF 1
Pre 5 / A11

For that Voice, the Control Set assignment of the Destination for AS1 is Insert B Effect Dry/Wet Balance, abbreviated on the MOXF as “INSB: EfD/W”.

The knobs are -64 through +63 OFFSET controls for the Parameter they’re controlling. The default Insert B for the Voice in question is “Tempo Cross Delay”, with Dry/Wet Balance set to D63>W (fully dry) and a Depth of 10.

It appears that the Control Set assignment in Utility mode does not override/replace the Voice mode setting, but adds an additional control layer when set to CC#11.

In my opinion, a foot pedal is more appropriate to control Expression. If you’re still looking for a way to deal with overall level of an already sequenced Song, the EQ method I’ve previously described is what I suggest.

I’m not trying to change any existing Song anymore. I’m just looking for a way to start using Expression INSTEAD of Volume so that because inserting a slew of Volume events in each. I now see the huge advantage of having a Master General Volume for the Part and work within that with Expression commands. A good example is after having carefully balanced a whole horn section to each other AND within the Song overall mix. I can’t ride them in a grouping so all I can do is attempt to lower the Volume of each the SAME AMOUNT, but each horn may have 8 or 10 Volume change events.

But here is the thing about what you just described to me about the Control Set of Tenor Growl AF 1.  I simply chose that Voice (and Song) at random in order to provide an example. This behavior happens with ALL the Voices I try it on. Organ, guitar, bass. The only difference is that I’m offered some other odd parameter.

And, it’s also confusing to have Expression events in the list after ignoring the knob display and just twirling the knob around. Why, if it’s defaulting to some other parameter, is it inserting bogus Expression events? 

As for using a pedal, I have plenty of them, but I find them to be rather clumsy, especially if I’m trying to make incremental changes, thus my interest in a knob or some other controller. Maybe there are methods to adjust the sweep of the pedal? 

Thanks for investigating the mystery. Not the answer I’d hoped for, but at least I can stop spinning my wheels.

muscarella - 24 April 2021 10:51 PM

But here is the thing about what you just described to me about the Control Set of Tenor Growl AF 1.  I simply chose that Voice (and Song) at random in order to provide an example. This behavior happens with ALL the Voices I try it on. Organ, guitar, bass. The only difference is that I’m offered some other odd parameter.

I asked what Voice you were using so that I could explain where ”INSB: EfD/W” originated and what it meant. Obviously, the Control Set assignments for AS1 (and AS2) will be different for each Voice. So you’re not seeing an “odd” Parameter, it’s what’s assigned at the Voice level in each case.

 

muscarella -

And, it’s also confusing to have Expression events in the list after ignoring the knob display and just twirling the knob around. Why, if it’s defaulting to some other parameter, is it inserting bogus Expression events?

As I said…
“It appears that the Control Set assignment in Utility mode does not override/replace the Voice mode setting, but adds an additional control layer when set to CC#11.”

By the way, assigning AS1 to CC#11 in Utility mode on my XF creates even stranger behavior (which I won’t get into here). I avoid that assignment since I have no need for it.

That’s all I can offer on this topic. Perhaps another member might have further insight. Otherwise, I suggest that you contact Yamaha itself and see what they can offer.

 

muscarella -

As for using a pedal, I have plenty of them, but I find them to be rather clumsy, especially if I’m trying to make incremental changes, thus my interest in a knob or some other controller. Maybe there are methods to adjust the sweep of the pedal?

You might find an external controller with knobs/sliders that can be programmed for CC#11.

 

muscarella -

Thanks for investigating the mystery. Not the answer I’d hoped for, but at least I can stop spinning my wheels.

You’re welcome. If Yamaha provides any clues, please let us know.

EDIT:
An idea…
You could disable the Dry/Wet control for Insert B by AS1 for the Song. Store “Tenor Growl AF 1” (or any other Normal Voice) as a Mixing Voice with its AS1 assignment set to “off”.