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Viewing topic "Motif XS8 via mLAN"

   
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Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 06:15 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Hi everyone,

I’ve been trying to connect my XS8 to my MAC via firewire, so I can use all the benefits XS offers.
However, I’ve come to an old post which says “FW or mLAN? mLAN is a no brainer.” So, I gave up trying to connect via FW.

What I want is, to be able to use my XS as a true VSTi and DSP effect device. I should be able to use XS’s internal voices as I use, say, my Arturia Moog VSTi. When I open Moog VSTi, I have a MIDI (instrument) track in my DAW (Studio One 3 Pro), and when send MIDI signal from XS (local off), I can hear the Moog sound; without setting an audio track. I want XS to act that way.
Also, I should be able to route the effects so that I can use them with/on either Moog VSTi, etc. or XS’s internal voices.

I have read many articles and have watched many videos especially about the FW connection, but I unfortunately failed each and every attempt. This is because:
a) I don’t understand the protocol
b) YSFW is best when used with Logic, Cubase, Sonar, and Digital Performer. But I only have Studio One 3 Pro and Ableton Live.
c) The tutorials and explanations are a bit old: I don’t see the Mac menus that I am supposed to see.
d) Shortly; it didn’t work making the connection through those articles and videos as because the versions (Mac OS), the devices (XS. Not MOXF or sth. else), and the DAWs either don’t match with mine or are older versions.

XS is a powerful, powerful workstation. I kindly request assistance for connecting it to my Mac via mLAN, and how to use it properly.

Thanks in advance

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 10:11 AM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 25 March 2019 06:15 AM

[...]
I’ve come to an old post which says “FW or mLAN? mLAN is a no brainer.”
[...]

I’d like to read that post before replying further. Please provide a link to it.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 10:39 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular
5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 10:11 AM

I’d like to read that post before replying further. Please provide a link to it.

Here it is:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/archive/viewthread/92410

Not the exact phrase, but the essence stays, I guess. Is mLAN not the best way to connect to a computer?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 11:13 AM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 25 March 2019 10:39 AM
5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 10:11 AM

I’d like to read that post before replying further. Please provide a link to it.

Here it is:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/archive/viewthread/92410

Not the exact phrase, but the essence stays, I guess. Is mLAN not the best way to connect to a computer?

Thanks for the link. You seem to have misinterpreted what that thread was about. The discussion concerned using an optional Yamaha mLAN16E in a Motif ES versus an external M-Audio FW410 interface. The point made was that the Yamaha device was superior to the M-Audio one, not that mLAN was better than FireWire (FW). Of course, mLAN uses the FW bus to communicate.

Another question before I get into more detail…
Do you have any gear with mLAN other than the XS8?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 11:57 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Thank you very much!
I have a production to make in which the XS is the biggest actor, but I couldn’t manage to set the connections. So depressed and unhappy. Thank you, thank you. :)

5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 11:13 AM

Another question before I get into more detail…
Do you have any gear with mLAN other than the XS8?

Yes, I also have TC Electronic Impact Twin (connected via FW).
So: Mid-2010 MacBook Pro, Impact Twin, XS8 and as my primary DAW: Studio One 3 Pro

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 12:35 PM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 25 March 2019 11:57 AM

Thank you very much!
I have a production to make in which the XS is the biggest actor, but I couldn’t manage to set the connections. So depressed and unhappy. Thank you, thank you. :)

You’re welcome. I hope that getting the XS communicating via FW will be helpful in your endeavors.

 

Kahnn -

Yes, I also have TC Electronic Impact Twin (connected via FW).

While the TC Electronic Impact Twin is connected via FW, it isn’t an mLAN device. I asked because if you had other mLAN (typically Yamaha) devices, the choice of drivers is limited. Otherwise, a FW driver compatible with your computer/OS can be used if the mLAN16E2 in your XS8 has updated firmware.

An updated mLAN16E2 runs version 1.07 firmware. If you’ve never updated the XS, it likely doesn’t have the update installed. If you can run the following, you can determine which version is currently installed, and update if necessary…
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/60375_en.html

Let us know how that goes.

 

Kahnn -

So: Mid-2010 MacBook Pro, Impact Twin, XS8 and as my primary DAW: Studio One 3 Pro

Unfortunately, I can only try to assist with the XS8 - assistance with any of the rest will have to come from others.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 01:06 PM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Thanks again!

5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 12:35 PM

 
While the TC Electronic Impact Twin is connected via FW, it isn’t an mLAN device. I asked because if you had other mLAN (typically Yamaha) devices, the choice of drivers is limited. Otherwise, a FW driver compatible with your computer/OS can be used if the mLAN16E2 in your XS8 has updated firmware.

I see. No other mLAN devices.
I only once tried to connect via ethernet/mLAN to see what happens, but I found it complicated and gave up. I mostly tried to connect over FW:
Mac (FW800) <=> (FW400) Impact Twin (FW400) <=> (FW400) XS8
I also a few times tried directly from Mac to XS, physically bypassing the Impact Twin.

5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 12:35 PM

An updated mLAN16E2 runs version 1.07 firmware. If you’ve never updated the XS, it likely doesn’t have the update installed. If you can run the following, you can determine which version is currently installed, and update if necessary…
https://usa.yamaha.com/support/updates/60375_en.html
Let us know how that goes.

1.07 it is (and was).
Via FW: Both the Yamaha Control Panel and XS Editor (Standalone) works just fine. I can get ‘online’ and control my XS from the computer through XS Editor.

5pinDIN - 25 March 2019 12:35 PM

Unfortunately, I can only try to assist with the XS8 - assistance with any of the rest will have to come from others.

That’s ok, I am in touch with other communities/people concerning non-XS(non-Yamaha) problems. Knowing what result I should expect / what could be done and how to connect properly would be enough, I think.

Since I’m not familiar with computer protocols such as LAN or FW, here are some rookie questions:
1) XS can be connected via USB, FW, and mLAN. Afaik, USB port is basically no different than 5pin MIDI in/out ports, and is way restricted than FW /mLAN. What are the differences between those protocols?
2) There is no need to use the two or all of those 3 connection protocols simultaneously, since, say, the FW and mLAN connections already include / provide MIDI connection, right? And no need to connect via FW when already connected through mLAN?

Again; thank you for your time and your patience.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 07:27 PM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 25 March 2019 01:06 PM

[...]
Since I’m not familiar with computer protocols such as LAN or FW, here are some rookie questions:
1) XS can be connected via USB, FW, and mLAN.

Also coaxial S/PDIF and Ethernet. The S/PDIF connection is basically what’s available at the L/MONO and R main line outputs, but as 44kHz/16-bit digital. The Ethernet connection is mostly useful for file transfers between the XS and a computer.

 

Kahnn -

Afaik, USB port is basically no different than 5pin MIDI in/out ports, and is way restricted than FW /mLAN. What are the differences between those protocols?

A USB (or IEEE1394/FW) connection is the equivalent of multiple MIDI ports. See MIDI channels and MIDI ports on pages 43-44 of the XS Owner’s Manual. Note that in addition to what’s described there, Port 4 is used for the Yamaha Editor.

It’s possible to connect a USB hub to the XS. That will allow multiple USB devices to be plugged in simultaneously. For example, more than one flash drive, plus a USB ASCII keyboard (which can make entering file names, etc., much easier than using the data dial and cursor keys). If an Ethernet connection is established, that should allow the computer to see the flash drives connected to the hub, and for files to be transferred between those flash drives and the computer.

 

Kahnn -

2) There is no need to use the two or all of those 3 connection protocols simultaneously, since, say, the FW and mLAN connections already include / provide MIDI connection, right? And no need to connect via FW when already connected through mLAN?

If you’ve updated the mLAN16E2 firmware to 1.07, have OS 1.60 installed on the XS, and are using the proper YSFW driver, then you aren’t using mLAN protocols. Properly configured FW should provide both MIDI and digital audio connections.

Since you mentioned that you have the Yamaha XS Editor running with FW, I presume that the XS settings are correct. However, just to be sure…
Press [UTILITY]
Press [F1](General)
Press [F4](Auto Load)
Verify that IEEE1394 Driver is set to “FW”
If not, change it, press [STORE], and reboot the XS.

If you’re having difficulty with getting the XS VST to function under Studio One, I’m afraid that’s something I can’t help with. I found a few links which discuss similar problems, although not necessarily with an XS running FW. Perhaps they will be of some help, or hint at where to turn…
https://answers.presonus.com/20518/how-do-connect-yamaha-motif-xs6-studio-one-pro-for-midi-input
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/476253/
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=213&t=1524
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/453311/

Otherwise, hopefully another Motifator member can offer further insight.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 25, 2019 @ 08:27 PM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Hi back,

Thank you for your response.

While I was waiting (for a response), I’ve found out that I have a Cubase LE 6 license, for which I’ve paid a little money and so I have Cubase LE 10 now. :)

As I no longer will be suffering to an ‘alien’ software as S3 (alien to Yamaha, apparently :), I will redo the steps as soon as the download and setup is done.

I will be back. ;)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2019 @ 03:56 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Nope :(
Works on Cubase LE 10, but not in Studio One.
So the problem lies within Studio One.
Unfortunately, I have to work with S1, for that Cubase version has too many restrictions. I’ll keep on trying.

Extending the USB port with a hub is a brilliant idea, 5pinDIN! Thanks!
Actually, I am using a bus-powered 80GB external drive with the USB port, but I wondered if a hub could both power up a MIDI device whilst sending/receiving MIDI signals through USB (like the Korg Kronos does)? That would be really really convenient and practiacal! Are there any MIDI keyboards which could work that way?

By the way, I’ve found out that FW and mLAN are almost the same protocols, both connected via FW. I thought mLAN = ethernet! Since ethernet is faster and more stable than FW (and USB), and since I couldn’t connect my XS to Studio One properly, I think I should give another shot to the ethernet connection.

Kind regards,
Kahnn

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2019 @ 10:55 AM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 28 March 2019 03:56 AM

Nope :(
Works on Cubase LE 10, but not in Studio One.
So the problem lies within Studio One.
Unfortunately, I have to work with S1, for that Cubase version has too many restrictions. I’ll keep on trying.

VST is Steinberg’s thing, and compatibility by other company’s products (in particular with VST3) can be hit-or-miss.
http://www.google.com/search?q=VST3+Steinberg

 

Kahnn -

Extending the USB port with a hub is a brilliant idea, 5pinDIN! Thanks!

It’s not my original idea, but you’re welcome.

See page 5 of this…
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/8/335278/motifxs_en_add_v150a0.pdf
...for use of a USB ASCII keyboard. Although a hub isn’t required, using one allows the ASCII keyboard to remain connected along with other devices.

 

Kahnn -

Actually, I am using a bus-powered 80GB external drive with the USB port, but I wondered if a hub could both power up a MIDI device whilst sending/receiving MIDI signals through USB (like the Korg Kronos does)? That would be really really convenient and practiacal! Are there any MIDI keyboards which could work that way?

As I’m sure you’re aware, the XS has two USB ports. The TO DEVICE port will support a hub, and both memory devices and an ASCII keyboard can be attached. The hub can be bus-powered as long as the total current draw by all attached devices doesn’t exceed 0.5amps (500mA). If more current is needed, a self-powered hub can be used.

MIDI data communication is via the TO HOST port. Typically that requires a connection to a computer, or alternatively another device acting as a host.

If at the same time USB operation is active, you’d like to use an external keyboard having 5-pin MIDI with the XS, that can be done via Port 3. See the Port 3 information on page 44 of the XS Owner’s Manual. This thread might also be informative:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/450550/

 

Kahnn -

By the way, I’ve found out that FW and mLAN are almost the same protocols, both connected via FW. I thought mLAN = ethernet! Since ethernet is faster and more stable than FW (and USB), and since I couldn’t connect my XS to Studio One properly, I think I should give another shot to the ethernet connection.

Since mLAN was available on several Yamaha devices, if someone owns them it’s usually best to stick with mLAN.

The mLAN16E2 was replaced by the FW16E (which unfortunately is no longer available from Yamaha). The mLAN driver can’t be used with the FW16E - it requires the FW driver. The updated firmware (version 1.07) for the mLAN16E2 allows that same FW driver to be used with it.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2019 @ 12:17 PM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

Wise and elegant as usual… Thanks!

5pinDIN: “VST is Steinberg’s thing, and compatibility by other company’s products (in particular with VST3) can be hit-or-miss.”
Me: Studio One supports VST3, and ‘sees’ XS Editor VST as a VST3. (thumbs up) Bu still, no proper connection. In one of the links you just gave, Bad Mister explains the difference between Main, Remote, MIDI in/out. This gave me some idea to try one more time, with a different configuration.

5pinDIN: “The mLAN16E2 was replaced by the FW16E (which unfortunately is no longer available from Yamaha). The mLAN driver can’t be used with the FW16E - it requires the FW driver. The updated firmware (version 1.07) for the mLAN16E2 allows that same FW driver to be used with it.”
Me: I don’t want to use FW and mLAN together: What I want is to make a proper bidirectional connection between the XS and Studio One, so that I can transmit and receive MIDI signals whilst using the XS sound engine as a VSTi. Since I’ve been failing each and every attempt; I’m asking myself: Maybe I should try connecting through ONLY mLAN. And mLAN, which is superior in connection speed and hence quality, is capable of what I want, right? So, if I set a network up, I wouldn’t need a FW or USB connection, for mLAN networking will provide all they do?
If so, please assist me through the process / procedure, so I can give the mLAN / ethernet connection a shot.

Kind regards…

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2019 @ 12:21 PM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

The most recent knowledge and information, the better it is, btw.
I will probably have problems with manual references which are from ancient times when Macs were called Macintosh. I’m already alien to the process / procedure, trying to success through older menus that no longer exist there or have changed dramatically since will help nothing.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 28, 2019 @ 06:13 PM
5pinDIN
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Kahnn - 28 March 2019 12:17 PM

Wise and elegant as usual… Thanks!

5pinDIN: “VST is Steinberg’s thing, and compatibility by other company’s products (in particular with VST3) can be hit-or-miss.”
Me: Studio One supports VST3, and ‘sees’ XS Editor VST as a VST3. (thumbs up) Bu still, no proper connection. In one of the links you just gave, Bad Mister explains the difference between Main, Remote, MIDI in/out. This gave me some idea to try one more time, with a different configuration.

I hope you have eventual success with Studio One. My point was that although Steinberg offers an SDK (Software Development Kit) for VST3, apparently not all third-party software fully implements it properly.

 

Kahnn -

5pinDIN: “The mLAN16E2 was replaced by the FW16E (which unfortunately is no longer available from Yamaha). The mLAN driver can’t be used with the FW16E - it requires the FW driver. The updated firmware (version 1.07) for the mLAN16E2 allows that same FW driver to be used with it.”
Me: I don’t want to use FW and mLAN together: What I want is to make a proper bidirectional connection between the XS and Studio One, so that I can transmit and receive MIDI signals whilst using the XS sound engine as a VSTi. Since I’ve been failing each and every attempt; I’m asking myself: Maybe I should try connecting through ONLY mLAN. And mLAN, which is superior in connection speed and hence quality, is capable of what I want, right? So, if I set a network up, I wouldn’t need a FW or USB connection, for mLAN networking will provide all they do?
If so, please assist me through the process / procedure, so I can give the mLAN / ethernet connection a shot.

Perhaps I need to clarify the situation…
The YSFW drivers were updated beyond those for mLAN so that they’re compatible with more recent computer OS versions. There’s no advantage to operating under mLAN that I’m aware of unless you have other such gear. The problems you’re experiencing seem to be related to the lack of full compatibility of Studio One with VST3, or your setup of Studio One, as far as I can determine from your posts.

This thread…
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/461623/
...although discussing an XF and initially FL Studio, touches on setting up Studio One, if you read through it. Perhaps you’ll find something helpful there.

Sorry, but that’s all I can offer. If another Motifator member has had success with using an XS as VSTi with Studio One, please post.

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 29, 2019 @ 05:58 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

5pinDIN: Perhaps I need to clarify the situation…
The YSFW drivers were updated beyond those for mLAN so that they’re compatible with more recent computer OS versions. There’s no advantage to operating under mLAN that I’m aware of unless you have other such gear. The problems you’re experiencing seem to be related to the lack of full compatibility of Studio One with VST3, or your setup of Studio One, as far as I can determine from your posts.

Me: No. I think I need to clarify what I was asking. I don’t have any other mLAN devices other than XS, it’s true. But since I cannot obtain a proper connection through FW, mLAN /ethernet connection has the advantage of:
a) speed and stability (even if FW is capable of the two for the job is supposed to do, ethernet connection is faster with its larger bandwidth and hence is much too reliable),
b) it is another way that I haven’t tried and/or failed yet. The FW, i tried. Failed. Connecting through an ethernet cable and composing a network is the advantage of a new hope. :)
Anyway, since the FW is almost to be figured out, I postpone the ethernet option.

5pinDIN: I hope you have eventual success with Studio One. My point was that although Steinberg offers an SDK (Software Development Kit) for VST3, apparently not all third-party software fully implements it properly.

Me: Thanks, I think I’m very close to the end of the solution. Although Studio One ‘sees’ VST3 (in this case the XS8), it is lacking the menus such as ‘VST setup’, where I could easily route the audio signal from the XS. Now that I’ve eliminated most of the problems, I can ask one single question, that should wash all of the troubles away:

Do I have to route XS-outs to the other audio device (Impact Twin)? Or is it not necessary, as for the XS is already sending audio data via FW?
If I have to route the audio signal anyway, what is the superiority of FW to the USB connection!? Why should I bother to connect via FW!?
To me, FW connection should provide audio within, so that I shouldn’t need to route the audio signal through XS’s outputs (or, say, SPDIF, for that matter).

A second question is: If I must route the audio signal from XS to Impact Twin anyway, is SPDIF not a better and more steril way for that? Should I go for it?
Oh, God! I really don’t understand why I should route the audio signal from XS’s outputs or SPDIF, since that is what FW connection is supposed to do!!!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: March 29, 2019 @ 06:15 AM
Kahnn
Total Posts:  50
Joined  05-28-2011
status: Regular

In other words, this is what it is supposed to be (according to me):
a) MIDI signal from XS to DAW (local off, oc)
b) MIDI signal from DAW to XS’s sound engine’ına
c) Audio signal via FW from XS sound engine to DAW
d) and audio signal from DAW to Impact Twin, then to the speakers from the I. Twin

If c is not to happen, what is the purpose of FW? What is FW’s superiority to USB connection?

  [ Ignore ]  


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