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Viewing topic "Envelope Amount/Depth impact on Envelope?"

     
Posted on: July 12, 2018 @ 08:48 AM
lastmonk
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Joined  12-17-2013
status: Pro

Okay I know how envelopes work (for the most part).

I know that the envelope will automatically modulate a parameter’s level for you over time.  e.g Filter envelopes change/modulate the cutoff frequency over time.

But there is a lot of fuzzy talk in the Yamaha Parameter Manual, Youtube tutorials, Internet Forums etc when it comes to the particulars of what effect Depth/Amount Parameter has on the envelop levels.

The broad generic consensus is the more EG Amount/ EG Depth, the more you affect the parameter the envelop is controlling , the less Amount/Depth, the less it is affected.  I won’t mention the discrepancy over negative values out there.  I play the amount/depth parameter until I get the sound I’m looking for (but its still kind of trial and error)

Here is my question specific to envelope depth/amount on the Motif/Mox.

On the Motif/MOX

A FEG and PEG has level values for HOLD, ATK, DCY1, DCY2, REL.

Does the Depth Parameter on say the FEG affect all 5 levels?  That is, is DEPTH some kind of offset for all 5 levels?

OR

Does DEPTH ( in the case of the FEG) give only some relative amount of the CUTOFF value to the five levels of the envelop?

For instance if I have say a cutoff value of 100

and my HOLD,ATK,DCY1,DCY2, and REL Levels set at 50

and say I set depth at 20.

And say for the sake of argument the depth parameter represents 20%

Is the Depth 20% being applied to my HOLD, ATK,DCY1,DCY2,REL levels (i.e.  20% * 50) while my initial CUTOFF remains at 100

Or

Is the Depth 20% being applied to my CUTOFF( 20% CUTOFF) effectively making my CUTOFF 80 while keeping my HOLD,ATK, DCY1,DCY2,REL levels at 50?

OR

Is the Depth 20% impacting the changes of the levels between HOLD, ATK,DCY1,DCY2, and REL

Or is something else going on all together?

For example my current assumption is that the EG DEPTH amount for the envelop does not affect the time parameters for the envelop (Is that a valid assumption?) On the MOX the depth parameter is on the same line as the envelope levels , so I’m assuming that EG Depth only applies to Level and not time.

The version of the Yamaha Synthesizer Parameter Manual that I have states:

“EG Depth Determines the range over which the Cutoff Frequency envelope changes.

0 The Cutoff Frequency does not Change
The farther from 0 the value is, the larger the range of the Cutoff Frequency
Negative Values:  The range of the Cutoff Frequency is reversed”

That definition imo is foggy as it relates EG DEPTH to the specific FEG level/time settings you might have for a sound.

If FEG EG Depth is a 63 does that mean your Envelope levels and times will be exactly as you have specified them?  Or does it apply some sort of offset to one or more of your envelope levels.  If EG Depth is say 10 does that mean all of you FEG levels are modified by some amount or only your CUTOFF is modified by some amount?

I know this is a very dense question, and not for the weak of heart LOL.  But I’m hoping some of the sound designers, synth heads out there who are really familiar with MOTIF/MOX architecture or really familiar with envelopes and envelope depth/amount can
share their knowledge.  :-)

Currently I’m watching Dave Polichs Sound Advice DVD set (Disk 2 in this case) And its totally awesome worth every penny and more. I strongly recommend it for those that want to get deeply into the synthesis aspect of the Motif and MOX.  But so far DISK 2 is giving me a good understanding of how EG DEPTH affects the sound but not the relationship between EG DEPTH and the FEG/PEG Levels and Time Parameters.  Maybe that’s too much into the weeds for most musicians and Dave probably didn’t want to turn the buying audience off But some inquiring minds want to know LOL.

Does anybody out there have the specifics on the relationship between EG DEPTH and the Envelope LEVELS or the Parameter the Envelope is controlling?

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: July 12, 2018 @ 12:53 PM
5pinDIN
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Joined  09-16-2010
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As far as I know…

EG Depth affects only the envelope Level settings, not Time settings.

EG Depth is not an offset (addition to or subtraction from a value). Rather, EG Depth acts as a multiplier of all of the envelope Level Parameters. When EG Depth is set to 0(zero), the Levels are all multiplied by that value (and are then all effectively 0), and therefore it’s as if the “envelope” was actually flat on the baseline. If a Level setting is negative, and EG Depth is negative, the result is as if the two were positive (a negative value multiplied by a negative is positive).

If you want to experiment with something very audible, initialize a Voice, and choose the “Sine” Waveform for the Oscillator. EG Depth defaults to +20. Set a positive value for the PEG Attack Level, and play a key. You’ll hear the pitch rise and fall. Try various EG Depth settings and note the degree of pitch change. Reset the Attack Level to 0(zero) and set the Decay 1 Level to other than 0(zero). Try different EG Depth settings. Reset Decay 1 Level to 0(zero) and set Decay 2 Level to a non-zero setting. Etc. You should notice that each of the Levels is affected by EG Depth.

What I don’t know is specifically how the EG Depth and envelope Level values interrelate numerically. However, I do seem to remember Dave Polich once saying that when adjusting Parameters, you should listen with your ears and not your eyes.  :-)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: July 12, 2018 @ 06:37 PM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  148
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Pro
5pinDIN - 12 July 2018 12:53 PM

As far as I know…

EG Depth affects only the envelope Level settings, not Time settings.

EG Depth is not an offset (addition to or subtraction from a value). Rather, EG Depth acts as a multiplier of all of the envelope Level Parameters. When EG Depth is set to 0(zero), the Levels are all multiplied by that value (and are then all effectively 0), and therefore it’s as if the “envelope” was actually flat on the baseline. If a Level setting is negative, and EG Depth is negative, the result is as if the two were positive (a negative value multiplied by a negative is positive).

If you want to experiment with something very audible, initialize a Voice, and choose the “Sine” Waveform for the Oscillator. EG Depth defaults to +20. Set a positive value for the PEG Attack Level, and play a key. You’ll hear the pitch rise and fall. Try various EG Depth settings and note the degree of pitch change. Reset the Attack Level to 0(zero) and set the Decay 1 Level to other than 0(zero). Try different EG DEpth settings. Reset Decay 1 Level to 0(zero) and set Decay 2 Level to a non-zero setting. Etc. You should notice that each of the Levels is affected by EG Depth.

What I don’t know is specifically how the EG Depth and envelope Level values interrelate numerically. However, I do seem to remember Dave Polich once saying that when adjusting Parameters, you should listen with your ears and not your eyes.  :-)

Thanx 5pinDIN, this is exactly the information I needed, and your suggestion for testing is perfect.

Yea, I’m deep into Dave’s Polich’s DVD set at this very moment.  Its extremely helpful.  Its a treasure!  But so far he hasn’t addressed the EG Depth’s specific relationship with envelope levels.  But your answer fills in all the gaps.  Again Thanx!!!!  The community is lucky to have you and Dave!!!!

Hmmm....  I wonder if the Montage has anything close to Dave Polich’s Sound Advice set
or 5pinDIN for that matter :-)

Cheers!

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: July 13, 2018 @ 10:47 AM
5pinDIN
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Total Posts:  10483
Joined  09-16-2010
status: Legend
lastmonk - 12 July 2018 06:37 PM

Thanx 5pinDIN, this is exactly the information I needed, and your suggestion for testing is perfect.

You’re welcome.

 

lastmonk -

Yea, I’m deep into Dave’s Polich’s DVD set at this very moment.  Its extremely helpful.  Its a treasure!  But so far he hasn’t addressed the EG Depth’s specific relationship with envelope levels.  But your answer fills in all the gaps.  Again Thanx!!!!  The community is lucky to have you and Dave!!!!

Thanks for the kind words. Dave Polich may not see them - his profile indicates his last visit was on November 5, 2017.

 

lastmonk -

Hmmm....  I wonder if the Montage has anything close to Dave Polich’s Sound Advice set
or 5pinDIN for that matter :-)

Cheers!

I’m unfamiliar with any such DVD set for the “successor” to the Motif XF. There is, of course, a Yamaha site that includes coverage of that model. (I try not to speak its name.) :-)

  [ Ignore ]  

Posted on: July 13, 2018 @ 11:29 AM
lastmonk
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Total Posts:  148
Joined  12-17-2013
status: Pro
5pinDIN - 13 July 2018 10:47 AM
lastmonk - 12 July 2018 06:37 PM

Thanx 5pinDIN, this is exactly the information I needed, and your suggestion for testing is perfect.

You’re welcome.

 

lastmonk -

Yea, I’m deep into Dave’s Polich’s DVD set at this very moment.  Its extremely helpful.  Its a treasure!  But so far he hasn’t addressed the EG Depth’s specific relationship with envelope levels.  But your answer fills in all the gaps.  Again Thanx!!!!  The community is lucky to have you and Dave!!!!

Thanks for the kind words. Dave Polich may not see them - his profile indicates his last visit was on November 5, 2017.

 

lastmonk -

Hmmm....  I wonder if the Montage has anything close to Dave Polich’s Sound Advice set
or 5pinDIN for that matter :-)

Cheers!

I’m unfamiliar with any such DVD set for the “successor” to the Motif XF. There is, of course, a Yamaha site that includes coverage of that model. (I try not to speak its name.) :-)

Well, Motifator is an important site.  We are all fortunate to have it and when there is an opportunity to share solid information or recommendations to the community I certainly won’t hesitate.  Dave’s Sound Advice will still be giving value for the dollar years from now.  If Dave happened to see my comments that would have been okay.  But I was expressing them because they reflect my true opinion and I wanted to share that with the community.

It is too bad Yamaha chose to market a successor to Motif.  I think that was a mistake.

They could have had a

Arranger Flagship : Genos
Workstation Synth Flagship :  Motif
Performance Synth Flagship : XXXX....

Those are really three difference markets.  Cannibalizing the Workstation Synth category in favor of the Performance Synth category has cost them market share and their leadership position.  Perhaps their financials wouldn’t let them have three flagship categories.

But in either case.  I’ve got my Motif XF8 and I’m happy as hell.  And regardless to whether I need to do voice design/synthesis, sequencing, sampling, audio recording or live performance the Motif is always completely up to the job. Heck at times its too much, and I fall back on my MOX 8.

The info you gave me worked out.  I was able to move forward, and I’ll definitely share that valuable knowledge with other Motif/Mox owners that I know.

Cheers!

  [ Ignore ]  


 
     


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