hi all!  If I press a key forcibly, and hold it down, even with an innocuous piano sound, it “warbles”, there is some sort of modulation thing going on, almost as if I were using the pitch bend or mod wheel, which I am not.

very annoying....If I play the keys lightly, this doesn’t happen....

similarly, if I send midi out to a voice module, especially, with a guitar type sound, it will do the same thing…

using another keyboard sending midi to the identical sound module does NOT produce this effect, only from the Motif…

Since I employ the sequencer with the motif and use it as my master keyboard, this is an annoying problem.

whatever is going on here ( the in-asked modulation ), is obviously being sent out as midi information also.

I would have done a reset of factory settings, but I think that would erase the AXX guitar sounds that I have added ( which was very difficult for me, by the way) and I would hate to have to do that all over again. 

thanks in advance!!

JOHN

JOHN GARGANI - 10 December 2017 11:12 AM

hi all!  If I press a key forcibly, and hold it down, even with an innocuous piano sound, it “warbles”, there is some sort of modulation thing going on, almost as if I were using the pitch bend or mod wheel, which I am not.

very annoying....If I play the keys lightly, this doesn’t happen....

similarly, if I send midi out to a voice module, especially, with a guitar type sound, it will do the same thing…

What you’re experiencing is a controller function referred to as “Aftertouch”. Unfortunately, the XF Owner’s Manual barely covers the topic - see (1) Keyboard on page 10.

Also see https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/aftertouch/

Could you tell us some specific Preset Voices (especially piano) you’re experiencing the “warble” on?

 

JOHN GARGANI -

using another keyboard sending midi to the identical sound module does NOT produce this effect, only from the Motif…

Some keyboards don’t have Aftertouch capability, or the function might be turned off.

 

JOHN GARGANI -

Since I employ the sequencer with the motif and use it as my master keyboard, this is an annoying problem.

While some controllers can be programmed globally, Aftertouch isn’t one of them. Only certain factory Voices have it turned on, although it can be turned on for others or turned off for any.

 

JOHN GARGANI -

whatever is going on here ( the in-asked modulation ), is obviously being sent out as midi information also.

MIDI data such as Aftertouch is sent by default. However, transmission can be defeated, and most MIDI gear and programs can filter it out.

This support article, although written about the XS, is applicable to the XF:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/motif_xs_working_with_and_understanding_physical_controllers

The XF Reference Manual (http://download.yamaha.com/file/48531) covers Aftertouch application in several areas.

thank you for the immediate reply!

I am reading the links provided....but what is confusing, is that I have never made any adjustments to the factory sounds, and it DID NOT do this previously!

this is only a recent thing, so, something happened by some fashion, in-intended....

When I control guitar sounds on the outboard Integra module, I already figured out that I had to go into the Integra’s MIDI for it’s sound and turn off reception of aftertouch, and usually, that would help, although, it doesn’t always work.

I will get back to this thread after viewing the controller sets screens…

BTW:  I am “semi” old school, in that I use the Motif’s sequencer to lay out the essential rhythm of the song ( usually bass, drums and rhythm instrument), and I use the amazing, but discontinued Korg32XD…

I can add extra parts, and if necessary, use another keyboard to trigger the sounds once I am no longer using the Motif sequencer, however, on some songs, it just lends itself better to also add one of those instruments using the sequencer and that is when I run into the aftertouch problem triggering other guitar sounds on my remote modules.

I have 4 keyboards in my rig: Motif XF8, Kronos, Roland FA08 and an old Ensoniq TS-12 ( a classic! )...in addition to that, I have 6 various voice modules, including the Integra...a lot of inputs!

It would be a financial nightmare to convert to computer driven in my case, and I am just comfortable with what I have and have gotten very efficient with it....

okay:  there is no aftertouch listed as a controller on that page....
Plus:  it is doing what I said FOR EVERY SOUND...not just the piano...bass, keyboard, etc...again, every single sound.

I cannot find some sort of Global controls regarding Aftertouch, however, since it is doing this for all sounds and never did before, I am sure there is something wrong here......

JOHN GARGANI - 10 December 2017 02:50 PM

okay:  there is no aftertouch listed as a controller on that page....
Plus:  it is doing what I said FOR EVERY SOUND...not just the piano...bass, keyboard, etc...again, every single sound.

I cannot find some sort of Global controls regarding Aftertouch, however, since it is doing this for all sounds and never did before, I am sure there is something wrong here......

Let’s try to narrow the possible causes…
Disconnect any audio, MIDI, USB, and Ethernet cables at the rear of the XF. Unplug any pedals. Plug headphones into the PHONES jack. Play the XF. Is the issue still evident?

okay, we have something here!

My motif is on it’s own separate power line, so, I turn it on/off independently of the rest of the rig. Similarly for the XD-32.

So:  I turn on the XD and ONLY the Motif:  it is NOT doing the modulated sound on pressure!

Now:  I flip the switches that turns on all of the rest of the rig ( keyboards, modules, etc.) and once again it does the warbling act!

alright; so now , with everything else on, I do what you said: I put the headphones into the Motif itself, and take all the connections out:

in this case:  L and R ouput, a midi OUT cable ( no IN or THROUGH ), and a sustain pedal.

It is NOT making the bad sound.....then, one by one, I add them back, while still listening to the MOtif headphone output…

again:  NOT making the bad sound, even after everything is plugged back in.

I switch the headphones back to the XD:  it makes the bad sound again.

now:  I flip the switch turning the rest of the gear OFF:  it stops making the bad sound!!!!!!!!!!!!

how weird is that?  How can the other gear possibly be affecting the motif in that way?

again, there is only a midi OUT, which goes to a MIDI SWITCHBOX that then sends Midi outs to the other components.

very strange, but perhaps this will give you the clue you need, I tried to do this in as logical a manner as possible for you.

here is my logic: aftertouch and modulation are MIDI controlled...if it was just feedback from the other power sources, there would be exactly that: feedback…

but there isn’t....there is a pressure activated effect, which, yes, is MIDI....

is it possible that something is wrong with the MIDI switcher box that is somehow allowing “backflow” of midi information to the Motif?

even though there are not inputs of MIDI directly into the Motif which is only used as a master midi keyboard.

just a thought....

while waiting for your reply, and I can’t thank you enough for them, I am going to try something else:  there are three inputs in the MIDI switcher:  A, B, C......the Motif is going into the A input.....

I am going to try it in the B or C, and see if there is any difference.

This of course, is only predicated on the possibility that the Midi box is somehow the problem.

The old Ensoniq TS is going into the B input of the MIdi box:  it does NOT exhibit the problem affect and if I send out to the other instruments using the Ensoniq, it does NOT produce that effect either.

the Ensoniq is ABOVE the motif in a 2 tier keyboard rack: but again, electrical interference from the above keyboard, in my mind, would only cause general distortion, not a midi generated event.

Eureka!  Problem narrowed down!

if I remove the “Midi out” (originating from the Motif), out of the switcher, the bad effect is gone!!

I then tried the other INPUTS, A and C:  same bad effect no matter what.

Now, if you would bear with me, my next logical thought is , before I go buying a new switcher, I will try the same thing BUT WITH A DIFFERENT MIDI CABLE!!

it is always possible, that the Midi cable itself is the culprit and not the switcher.

If you might recall, when I used the Ensoniq as the master, it did not produce that effect, so if the switcher is the problem, why not do the same thing to another master keyboard?

unless the Motif is unusually “sensitive” in a way the other isn’t…

but in any case, I will try a new Midi Cable and test out that possibility and can back on here again.

I’m beginning to get a fuzzy picture of what might be happening. So far, the XF seems blameless - it appears that the aftertouch data is triggering something in your other gear.

Let’s try a few more things…
1) With cables connected to the XF, turn all your gear on so that the “bad sound” (to be referred to as BS from here on :-) ) occurs.
2) Plug headphones into the XF. Is BS there?
3) Plug headphones into D32XD. Is BS there?
4) Unplug MIDI-OUT cable from the XF. Is BS at D32XD, or gone?

Please reply to questions in 2 through 4 point-by-point.

Given the capabilities of the D32XD and that there’s additional interconnected gear, this might take a bit of sleuthing to figure out.

EDIT: You posted while I was thinking about and typing the above. As I suspected, the problem is MIDI related.

oh well.....

a brand new Midi cable did not change the problem.

but here is the kicker:  again, if I use the TS to send MIDI out to the Integra, it does not produce the warbling effect on the Integra sound with a lot of pressure on the keys.

But if I do the same thing with the Motif:  IT DOES!

So how is it that the switcher works OKAY with the TS but not the Motif?

Is the problem now somehow in the Motif itself, that the Midi out internal receptacle is corrupted somehow??

The condition of MIDI cables and connectors can’t have any effect on this. What’s happening is that aftertouch data from the XF is being “translated” by some other piece of your gear. Without knowing your entire setup and how things are interconnected in detail, it will be difficult to track down the cause. The XF itself is not at fault. As I mentioned initially, transmission of aftertouch data from the XF can be defeated, if that’s your only concern.

2) Plug headphones into the XF. Is BS there?

no, never with just the XF phones

3) Plug headphones into D32XD. Is BS there?

back again

4) Unplug MIDI-OUT cable from the XF. Is BS at D32XD, or gone?

yes, removing the cable, you don’t hear the BS

Now:  another strange thing:  I did a few other experiments: when I trigger any other keyboard, or module in the set up, via the Motif, it does not produce the BS......

then, all of a sudden, the piano sound stopped producing the BS...however, if I went into the Integra and used a Guitar sound, it would produce the BS.

the integra goes into 15/16 on the XD: so I removed the plugs and inserted a different module into 15/16 and it didn’t produce the BS!!!!!!

so, somehow, the Integra is involved in all of this....

I am really mystified now....

keep in mind, I repeat, if I trigger the Integra with the TS as the master keyboard it does NOT produce the BS...only when the Motif is the trigger.....

JOHN GARGANI - 12 December 2017 11:55 AM

2) Plug headphones into the XF. Is BS there?

no, never with just the XF phones


3) Plug headphones into D32XD. Is BS there?

back again


4) Unplug MIDI-OUT cable from the XF. Is BS at D32XD, or gone?

yes, removing the cable, you don’t hear the BS

The XF is sending aftertouch data, which is the default. There’s nothing wrong with the XF.

 

JOHN GARGANI -

Now:  another strange thing:  I did a few other experiments: when I trigger any other keyboard, or module in the set up, via the Motif, it does not produce the BS......

then, all of a sudden, the piano sound stopped producing the BS...however, if I went into the Integra and used a Guitar sound, it would produce the BS.

the integra goes into 15/16 on the XD: so I removed the plugs and inserted a different module into 15/16 and it didn’t produce the BS!!!!!!

so, somehow, the Integra is involved in all of this....

Apparently the Integra is responding to aftertouch generated by the XF. Your other modules likely either can’t respond to aftertouch, or aftertouch filtering is enabled in them.

 

JOHN GARGANI -

I am really mystified now....

keep in mind, I repeat, if I trigger the Integra with the TS as the master keyboard it does NOT produce the BS...only when the Motif is the trigger.....

While an Ensoniq TS-12 can generate aftertouch, it would seem that in yours transmission is turned off.

Response to aftertouch by the Integra can probably be filtered by it. Since I don’t have an Integra, I can’t tell you offhand how to accomplish that.

Again, transmission of aftertouch by the XF can be disabled. If you’d like help with that, let us know.

okay:  how do you defeat the default of after touch....

I sure can’t figure it out, as there is no Global button, as is usually present in other devices.

let me know how to do this, and after I do it, I will get back to you yet once again to let you know of the results....

JOHN GARGANI - 12 December 2017 01:55 PM

okay:  how do you defeat the default of after touch....

I sure can’t figure it out, as there is no Global button, as is usually present in other devices.

let me know how to do this, and after I do it, I will get back to you yet once again to let you know of the results....

Which mode are you using the XF in? Given what you’ve revealed so far, I could assume Master - but let us know so that accurate information can be provided.