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Viewing topic "MOXF8 L/Mono (left mono) output does not work with church system?"

     
Posted on: March 12, 2017 @ 02:37 PM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

I play my MOXF8 in the contemporary band in a larger sized church and they just replaced their sound system with state-of-the-art equipment.  Both old and new systems, my MOXF produces no sound using cable into L/Mono.  We have resorted to using the Phones output.  That works but creates other sound engineering problems that are frustrating our sound folks (including putting volume control in my expression pedal that causes conflict in the booth).  I’m a musician, not a sound engineer type but I’m looking for some ideas to fix the problem.  Three possibilities:  (a) MOXF technical issue or (b) MOXF needs repair to L/Mono or (c) sound engineers aren’t understanding something.  I LOVE to play so I don’t want them to cringe every time they see me bring in my rig.  HELP!!

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Posted on: March 12, 2017 @ 04:45 PM
5pinDIN
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Welcome to the forum.

There are few possible causes of what’s happening. The headphone signal for each channel is taken from very near the point where the connection is made to the L/MONO and R line output jacks. If the PHONES output is working, then only a very few parts, a bad solder joint, etc., are likely problems. That assumes, of course, that a proper cable/plug is being connected to the L/MONO output.

If you have headphones, you can do some basic testing. Plug the phones into the L/MONO jack and see if playing the MOXF produces any sound from one side of the phones - it may be lower than at the PHONES jack, but should be audible. Do the same at the R jack. If you hear sound from phones at the L/MONO and R jacks, then the sound guys are doing something wrong. Let us know what you determine.

MOXF line outputs are unbalanced - a cable with a TS plug (not TRS) is the proper type.
https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/whats-the-difference-between-ts-and-trs-cables/
In addition, make sure that the MOXF output is not being connected to an input having phantom power turned on.

By the way, I don’t know what the complaint is about using the PHONES output. Although it’s not an ideal usage, it shouldn’t present any challenges beyond any presented by using the line outputs.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 04:07 PM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

Thank you so much for the detailed reply.  Very appreciated!

Apologies for not getting back right away.  I actually had back-to-back church events where I needed to play so I just finally got the MOXF back unpacked at home and did the L/Mono test you suggested.  As you predicted, sound from the powered monitors from L/Mono is faint but it is working.  That is a huge relief to eliminate a complete malfunction.  I have passed your post along to the sound booth folks to look into and volunteered to purchase a special cable if that is what it takes to make the MOXF happy with the church sound system.  Being able to volunteer my time in this way was a major reason that I purchased the keyboard and have been willing to haul it around so much.

I will repost if the sound guys get back to me with more questions.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 05:08 PM
5pinDIN
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cacesq - 14 March 2017 04:07 PM

Thank you so much for the detailed reply.  Very appreciated!

You’re welcome, but…

 

cacesq -

Apologies for not getting back right away.  I actually had back-to-back church events where I needed to play so I just finally got the MOXF back unpacked at home and did the L/Mono test you suggested.  As you predicted, sound from the powered monitors from L/Mono is faint but it is working.  That is a huge relief to eliminate a complete malfunction.  I have passed your post along to the sound booth folks to look into and volunteered to purchase a special cable if that is what it takes to make the MOXF happy with the church sound system.  Being able to volunteer my time in this way was a major reason that I purchased the keyboard and have been willing to haul it around so much.

I will repost if the sound guys get back to me with more questions.

...I had suggested using headphones, and checking at both the L/MONO and R line outputs. That suggestion was based on doing some testing while the MOXF was at the church. The powered monitors at home are something not previously mentioned, and might change the diagnostic approach. So let’s try again.

What gear do you have at home?

Headphones? If so, when plugged into the PHONES jack, are the two channels reasonably closely balanced?

Powered monitors? If so, with what kind of cables/plugs? If a cable from each is plugged into the L/MONO and R jacks at the same time, are the channels balanced?

I’ll either have a better diagnosis based on answers to the above, or perhaps further questions.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 05:25 PM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

And my neophyte status is sadly put in bold print.....
Where we are at....

(1) I tried testing the MOXF at home (because the church is only available certain hours by prearrangement).  I tried both my entry level powered monitors and my headphones.  The good news is that there was sound no matter what and where I plugged in.  I believe that eliminated by greatest fear, i.e. that the synth had a problem that required it being sent off for repairs.  As you pointed out, that only gave faint clues to other issues.
(2) I also took note of your TS vs. TRS comments.  (In my basic understanding the plugs with one or two lines across the tip.).  I observed that the adapters I have for the monitors and headphones are the two line ones… presumably the WRONG ones that are least helpful.
(3) Other Observations.  With L/Mono and Right with headphones only sound from one side of the headphones.  With powered monitors, sound is small but there.  Not sure if that helps.

I passed along your post to the sound booth engineers at the church.  I also suggested/offered to bring the MOXF to the church at a convenient time to work through diagnostics on their system.  I also offered to purchase anything needed to make the MOXF and the church sound system happy to work together.  I am waiting on their further reply and invitation.

Questions & Other Thoughts:
(1) They use direct box.  I know next to nothing about SOUND.  Synth seems to require computers + sound + music.  I have a degree in computer systems and I’m an advanced pianist—two out of three to some degree to deal with maximizing the synth.  The sound part of the necessary knowledge trio is my learning curve.  (And much of that is left to the church crew!) I think I read that direct box is supposed to help convert unbalance to balanced.
(2) I read something about mono vs. stereo relating to voices on synths.  Probably an unrelated but similar topic about getting the best sound out of the MOXF?
(3) We had major new sound system issues the last service that made the lead electric guitar muted and flat.  Previously they just gave up on L/Mono and plugged the MOXF using Phones.  Because the electric guitar lead was struggling, I was all over the expression pedal, feeling like I was overwhelming the lead.  (The bass had the same perceptions/concerns.) The problem with what you hear on monitor versus what they hear in sound booth and in house may have been contributing to the dissatisfaction going on (i.e. feeling like synth went from faint to overwhelming).  I need to be able to fade out voices (e.g. string not ending abruptly at the end of the song or playing lightly for reading scripture) but the expression pedal may be an issue with the sound crew (at least when other things are going awry).

I am happy to experiment as the church allows and as suggested!!
I appreciate that you have taken interest and time to reply.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 06:42 PM
5pinDIN
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Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I’m still not clear about certain things. If you can bear with me, I’d like to take this one step at a time.

Disconnect any pedals and MIDI, USB, or audio cables from the MOXF. With headphones plugged into the PHONES jack, can you get adequate volume level from both sides of the headphones? The MASTER VOLUME slider should control the level.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 07:05 PM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

Ah, and I think it is YOU bearing with ME and my lack of sound (versus computer/music) knowledge…

Specifically, with nothing but power and headphones plugged in (and the headphone adapter plug has TWO rings), a am yes getting full sound from both sides of the headphones.

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Posted on: March 14, 2017 @ 07:45 PM
5pinDIN
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cacesq - 14 March 2017 07:05 PM

Ah, and I think it is YOU bearing with ME and my lack of sound (versus computer/music) knowledge…

I really don’t mind, long distance diagnosis is one of my specialties.  :-)

 

cacesq -

Specifically, with nothing but power and headphones plugged in (and the headphone adapter plug has TWO rings), a am yes getting full sound from both sides of the headphones.

OK, that’s a good start. A stereo headphone needs three connections, so a TRS (Tip/Ring/Sleeve) plug is expected for that application. (The two “rings” you’re referring to are insulators that separate the metal Tip from the metal Ring, and the Ring from the metal Sleeve.)

Next, let’s address your observation that “With powered monitors, sound is small but there”. Although TS plugs would be more appropriate, for now I’m not concerned if the cables for your powered monitor speakers have TRS plugs. If you connect the cables to the L/MONO and R jacks, can you get good volume level from both channels?

If not, please describe the speakers a bit - make/model, and which jack (assuming there’s a choice) the cables are plugged into at the speaker end.

By the way, if I don’t respond to your next post in a timely manner, please don’t assume that I’ve lost interest. It’s just that I’m a few thousand miles from California, and I might have gone to bed.

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Posted on: March 15, 2017 @ 07:35 AM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

When I purchased the synth I had a budget and wanted to put it into the synth, so I just got the cheapest speakers that would work if I needed to get sound at home other than in the headphones (which is how I practice almost 100% of the time with my husband and sons watching TV in the next room explaining why I haven’t paid attention to the speaker output).  They are M-Audio AV 42 speakers.  (I am looking as a next step to upgrade them and have some birthday funds coming in a few months from now if there are recommendations.) The connection to the MOXF is a single cable through the left speaker, so not separate connections to L/R.  I’m getting sound only from the right speaker connecting through L/Mono or Phones.

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Posted on: March 15, 2017 @ 08:37 AM
5pinDIN
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Thanks for the information on the speakers. I’ve just done a bit of research on them, and have some comments…

1) Since they apparently come with a cable with 1/8” stereo (TRS) phone plug, I presume that you’re using an adapter to 1/4”. Those adapters often don’t make good contact, which may explain why you’re not getting both channels when connecting the speakers to the MOXF’s PHONES jack.

2) You could get cables that would connect from the MOXF’s L/MONO and R jacks to the two RCA jacks at the back of the left speaker. Such cables would be something like these:
https://www.sweetwater.com/c824--Unbalanced_Cables_TS_to_RCA
Choose an appropriate length. The inexpensive ones should be quite adequate, there’s no need for the fancy ones. I’m not endorsing the particular dealer, so if you prefer a different source, by all means buy there.

---------------------------------------

To address your earlier questions…

cacesq - 14 March 2017 05:25 PM

Questions & Other Thoughts:
(1) They use direct box.  I know next to nothing about SOUND.  Synth seems to require computers + sound + music.  I have a degree in computer systems and I’m an advanced pianist—two out of three to some degree to deal with maximizing the synth.  The sound part of the necessary knowledge trio is my learning curve.  (And much of that is left to the church crew!) I think I read that direct box is supposed to help convert unbalance to balanced.

I think knowledge of computers and music is a good basis.

A Direct Box (DI) typically can do a few things - convert unbalanced to balanced, line level to microphone level, match impedances, and possibly provide ground isolation. For the MOXF, short cables with TS plugs at both ends should connect from the L/MONO and R jacks to the DI inputs. The DI outputs should be connected using balanced cables, but that’s the “sound guys” domain.

 

cacesq - 14 March 2017 05:25 PM

(2) I read something about mono vs. stereo relating to voices on synths.  Probably an unrelated but similar topic about getting the best sound out of the MOXF?

Sound from the MOXF will definitely be better when reproduced in stereo. Using just the L/MONO output or otherwise running mono has an undesirable effect called “phase cancellation”. (I won’t go into detail about that at this time.) Of course, there are circumstances related to the PA system that might make operation in stereo impossible or at least impractical.

 

cacesq - 14 March 2017 05:25 PM

(3) We had major new sound system issues the last service that made the lead electric guitar muted and flat.  Previously they just gave up on L/Mono and plugged the MOXF using Phones.  Because the electric guitar lead was struggling, I was all over the expression pedal, feeling like I was overwhelming the lead.  (The bass had the same perceptions/concerns.) The problem with what you hear on monitor versus what they hear in sound booth and in house may have been contributing to the dissatisfaction going on (i.e. feeling like synth went from faint to overwhelming).  I need to be able to fade out voices (e.g. string not ending abruptly at the end of the song or playing lightly for reading scripture) but the expression pedal may be an issue with the sound crew (at least when other things are going awry).

If you get TS-to-RCA cables as I mentioned above, and both channels of the MOXF are proven to work correctly with them, then the MOXF issues at the church should be resolvable. At that point, the rest would be a matter of getting someone who knows how to run sound reinforcement gear.

 

cacesq - 14 March 2017 05:25 PM

I am happy to experiment as the church allows and as suggested!!
I appreciate that you have taken interest and time to reply.

I hope the preceding will help. If you have further questions, please post again.

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Posted on: March 15, 2017 @ 09:05 AM
cacesq
Total Posts:  6
Joined  03-24-2016
status: Newcomer

Thank you again. I have (1) ordered the recommended cables for home and (2) passed along the updated post thread to the music director at the church.  I will repost if there are more technical questions from the sound engineers relating to their specific system.

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