Motif XF8 Sounds Better than the XF6. I discovered this by accident today at Guitar Center.I decided to bring my headphones (Audio Technica M50Xs) with me so that I could decide if I wanted to add the Motif XF to my collection. I had played the Motif XF8 previously, with the headphones and determined that it was the best sounding keyboard I had ever heard, even after comparing the sound quality to the Kronos 2. Just better converters. Period. However, I found a Motif XF6, used that I could afford.
So I took a trip to Guitar Center to make my final decision. First, I played the XF8 which sounded brilliant as before, drums kits and guitars. I was walking towards a salesman and order the XF6, when I encountered a display model. So, just for the sake of it I located and played the same sounds I had played on the XF8. To my surprise, it didn’t sound the same!!! At first I thought I was doing something wrong, so I double checked to make sure I was playing the identical patches, switching back and forth between the two boards, but the result was the same. The converters on the XF6 didn’t sound as refined from the headphone output. I thought I was loosing my mind, but then the salesman at the store confirmed that other colleagues of his encountered the same puzzling differences between the models. Then I remembered, long ago when the xf series first arrived at Guitar Center I played an Xf6. And while I thought it sounded better than the XS, I didn’t think it was enough to justify a purchase. However,lately after playing with the Xf8, I’ve had a complete reversal of opinion. Now I know matter of factly, these boards sound different, with the XF8 very much on top, very professional and HD. I just wanted to share.

You have fallen into the dark hole of the ‘action differential’.

I own an XF8.  I am a lifelong piano player.  When I play on an XF6, what I hear and feel really sucks!  Why?  Because the action is really unsuited for the long-term feel I have developed between my playing and the more ‘piano-like’ keyboard action of the XF8 .

There is absolutely no difference between the response and sound of the XF6 and the XF8!  IMHO What you are experiencing is the power of keyboard action as it relates to “sound” and “feel”.

I believe it is apparent .  Your playing experience and optimum keyboard “feel” results in a more positive relationship with the XF8 action.

If you decide you’d like to own an XF, I recommend you buy the XF8.

We’re not privy to any sneaky behavior that might go on behind the scenes at Yamaha but certainly the official response to this would be: Absolutely Not!

The only way you can check this ‘for sure’ would be to MIDI up an XF6 and XF8 to another (controller) keyboard and do your demo again. I’d be very surprised if you’d hear any difference.

There are, however, sound (forgive the pun) reasons for what you experienced: 1. The keyboard velocity settings on the two instruments you played could well be different. In other words, when you play a note or even a piece on one instrument the sounds could well ‘speak’ differently simply because the velocity and scaling is set up differently and so you may be getting more… expression, top end, you name it, out of one than the other. 2. There is a huge psychological difference in how a sound feels / ‘sounds’ when played from a light-action keyboard in contrast to a weighted keyboard.
You play differently on each and so it feels as if the sounds are different…

I think a combination of these two phenomena is what you are experiencing but you’ll only know for sure if you connect an impartial new keyboard to them and/or run a MIDI sequence into them both and do an A/B with that.

Hope this helps.

PS thanks cmayhle. Boy, you’re just too quick! :)

darkspacekeyz - 25 June 2015 01:39 AM

Motif XF8 Sounds Better than the XF6.[...] I was walking towards a salesman and order the XF6, when I encountered a display model. So, just for the sake of it I located and played the same sounds I had played on the XF8. To my surprise, it didn’t sound the same!!![...] Now I know matter of factly, these boards sound different, with the XF8 very much on top, very professional and HD. I just wanted to share.

Welcome to the forum.

There is no difference between tone generator sections of the XF6 and XF8. What you are hearing is likely a combination of what cmayhle and MrMotif have mentioned. The dynamics of the keybed (action) of the XF8 and XF6 (or XF7) differ, which affects the key velocity. Velocity Curve and other settings might not have been the same for the two XF models you played, and correct settings make a big difference.

Here’s what I would suggest…
First, do a factory reset on both the XF8 and XF6:
Press [UTILITY]
Press [JOB]
The “All” box should have a check mark
Press [ENTER]
Press [INC/YES]

Play the XF8 and XF6 again.

If you still find the XF6 doesn’t sound as good to you as the XF8, change the XF6 Velocity Curve setting as follows…
Press [UTILITY]
Use cursor buttons to highlight Velocity Curve on display
Press [INC/YES] to set Velocity Curve to “soft”
Press [STORE]

Please let us know how the XF6 sounds to you after those changes.

“Used” being a key word of the Op’s post,
I think 5pin has nailed it.
Two out of the box units should sound equal with only a ‘feel’ difference in the keys.

*on a re-read, the post didn’t clarify that the
Guitar Center ‘display’ model was the used xf6 mentioned earlier....

Being on a budget in 2011 I bought a Motif XF7 and at first I realized that some acoustic piano sounds were nearly impossible to play, for those people like me, who are used to weighted keys.

In my humble opinion, a Motif XF7 with RH3 weighted keyboard would suresly be a best seller that could overshadow XF6 and XF8.

All that said, when I want to play acoustic piano sounds from XF7 I play it through S90ES or CP4…

When I play with bands just with XF7 I change the velocity curve in order to obtain a better response.

Even if the settings are the same, it’s no wonder that the same tone generator sounds different when played with a weighted piano action type keyboard or with a synth action type keyboard, especially piano-like or guitar-like sounds which have a wide dynamics.

E.g. the EX5 has the most responsive electric pianos patches I have ever played on a synth thanks to its FDSP synthesis, and they sound and *feel* actually much better when I play them using my stage piano as a master keyboard ;-)

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions! I will definitely try them out later today and post a reply. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit, but I was just so surprised. Mind you, all I was really observing was the headphone output of both machines, and not the analog outs. Anyway, 3 days ago I was at Guitar Center with my M50x headphones and I played the XF8 and also the MOXF8. After hearing the difference in sound from the headphone outputs that’s when I decided that the Motif XF was right for me. I’ll admit I was not expecting to hear a similar difference between the XF8 and XF6. I’m really hoping you guys are right so that I continue with my purchase of the XF6 and save some dough.
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Admittedly, and sadly I am kind of a sound snob,always testing this and that in my studio. I own several DA converters: Lucid AD2496, Apogee mini and Rosetta 200’s, Mytek 192, Burl B2 Bomber, and Prism Titan. When I listen to these converters by themselves it’s more difficult to discern a difference, however side by side, it becomes clear which are better. Even the different digital inputs on these converters sound different. I’ve compared so many cables it’s ridiculous. I use Yamaha HS8’s with the sub for monitoring because in an in store shootout between every pair that was there, they offered the most accurate detail. I feel the same about the M50x headphones.

I also have a Motif 6 and and ES6, using the digital output on the Motif and analog output on the ES. The sound quality on the Motif comes out sounding pristine, because of the Rosetta 200 I’m using as the DA. The ES I know would sound better if I had the digital output for it, but it sounds good enough for rock and roll. When I get a new keyboard though, I’d rather not have to worry about using a separate DA to get the sound that I want. Anyway, in a few hours I’ll let you know what happens.

Admittedly, and sadly I am kind of a sound snob

A ‘good ear’ is a ‘Gift’....  :-)

Thanks Windy. Well, I’ve returned to post my findings.

I brought a simple Y cable with me (1/4” + 1/4” to female TRS) to the store so that I could listen to the main outs on both the XF8 and XF6 in addition to returning both machines to factory settings and setting the keyboard response to “Hard” on the XF6 so it would better match the dynamics on the 8.

Once again I tested identical steel acoustic guitar patches and acoustic drum kits on both units with the following results:

*The XF6 sounded closer to the XF8, much better, but not the same.
*The main outputs on the XF6 are DEFINITELY not as hot OR LOUD as the outputs on the XF8.

After these tests I just played on both keyboards for a while, and each time I played the XF8 it’s outputs sounded...well, perfectly balanced, with a wider dynamic range than the XF6. I’m convinced now that either the DA converters in these machines are different, or that they have different power supplies or a different internal crystal clock or something to that effect.

Either way, it looks like I’m going to need to save up!

If anyone has the time or desire to check, could you corroborate any of these findings? Thanks for all of your comments and advice.

darkspacekeyz - 25 June 2015 12:57 PM

I brought a simple Y cable with me (1/4” + 1/4” to female TRS) to the store so that I could listen to the main outs on both the XF8 and XF6

What did you plug into the female TRS?

 

darkspacekeyz -

 in addition to returning both machines to factory settings and setting the keyboard response to “Hard” on the XF6 so it would better match the dynamics on the 8.[...]

I had suggested that you set the XF6 Velocity Curve to “soft”, not “hard”. In my opinion, setting it to “hard” makes it even less likely that you’ll obtain a full range of key velocities unless you tend to play with unusually high force. Not being able to hit the higher key velocities really dulls the sound, and of course the output level will be lowered.

 

darkspacekeyz -

[...]I’m convinced now that either the DA converters in these machines are different, or that they have different power supplies or a different internal crystal clock or something to that effect.[...]

That just isn’t the case. It’s much more likely that setting the XF6 Velocity Curve to “hard” negatively affected your perception.

I have both an XS6 and an XF6, each has Velocity Curve set to “soft”, and I have no complaints (related to key velocity) about how either sound. Of course, personal taste varies.

How about playing the factory demo sequences, so that the keys are not involved? Volume of the XF8 and XF6 should be precisely matched so that there’s not a prejudice towards one or the other.

You might still decide that the XF8 is your preference, but at least you’ll have given the XF6 a fair chance…

5pinDIN - 25 June 2015 01:28 PM

I had suggested that you set the XF6 Velocity Curve to “soft”, not “hard”. In my opinion, setting it to “hard” makes it even less likely that you’ll obtain a full range of key velocities unless you tend to play with unusually high force. Not being able to hit the higher key velocities really dulls the sound, and of course the output level will be lowered.

Thanks for checking into my claim 5pinDIN. Yes, I know you said to set the velocity curve to “soft”, but that velocity setting would actually limit how dynamic I could play and also put me further from the experience I am getting playing the weighted keys of the XF8. In my studio all of the unweighted keyboards I own are set to hard so that when I’m playing it sounds more dynamic. Make sense? That’s why I reversed your suggestion, and that actually yielded a positive result, making the XF6 sound almost like when I played the XF8.

As far as what I connected the “Y” cable to, well I connected it to the main outputs of each keyboard when I was playing it, and connected my M50x headphones to the female TRS end, so that I could listen to the output. I had to turn the main volume all the way up on the XF6 to get a decent signal, as those outputs were not designed for headphones. So when I went back to the XF8 I turned the main volume all the way up as well. Big difference in the level coming out of those mains! Anyway, I’m not too disappointed with the XF6. The samples and programming sound better than any keyboard I have, and had I not tried the XF8 I would have purchased one yesterday. The DA converters on the XF8 for whatever reason are superior.

darkspacekeyz - 25 June 2015 02:48 PM

[...]As far as what I connected the “Y” cable to, well I connected it to the main outputs of each keyboard when I was playing it, and connected my M50x headphones to the female TRS end, so that I could listen to the output. I had to turn the main volume all the way up on the XF6 to get a decent signal, as those outputs were not designed for headphones.

The 38 ohm impedance of the ATH-M50x is a poor match for the XF line output, which is about 600 ohms. Besides reduced level, that mismatch will cause any impedance variations of the headphones to be reflected in the frequency response. That makes using the ATH-M50x in that manner a compromised way to evaluate what the line outputs sound like.

 

darkspacekeyz -

So when I went back to the XF8 I turned the main volume all the way up as well. Big difference in the level coming out of those mains! Anyway, I’m not too disappointed with the XF6. The samples and programming sound better than any keyboard I have, and had I not tried the XF8 I would have purchased one yesterday. The DA converters on the XF8 for whatever reason are superior.

Again, setting the XF6 Velocity Curve to “hard” would limit the output level unless the keys were practically hit with a hammer. It’s not surprising that you found the XF8 output to be greater.

There’s no difference between the XF6 and XF8 DACs, or in the analog circuitry following them. If we put aside the keybed differences, either the way you’re setting/playing things explains the difference you’re hearing, or the XF6 you’re playing is damaged.

As I’ve already mentioned, playing the factory demo sequences (Songs/Patterns) would be a much better way of evaluating the the two models you’re comparing, aside from the keybeds.

By the way, please understand that I’m not trying to convince you to get the XF6 - by all means buy an XF8 if you find it more to your liking. I just wouldn’t want anyone else reading this thread to think that other than the keybeds (and related factors such as size and weight) there’s a difference between the three XF models.

Fare enough. Well, I’m done with the XF8 vs XF6 output testing comparisons. Let’s just chalk it up to a matter of personal taste :)

I would have been interested in hearing how the xf6 output sounded while being played/triggered from an 88 weighted.

I have a Roland Juno Gi which to be honest doesnt inspire me when it comes to piano sounds but when I connect it to my 88note weighted casio previa 310 some how comes to life and sounds like a completely different machine with much more dynamics.

I havent tried this other one as yet but want to do the same test with my beautifully sounding moxf6 Ive just bought..... but Ive just been quite busy lattely!!

Gents - c’mon. If you’re triggering another synth from a controller with weighted keys, it’s going to “sound better” because of the increased length, width, and resistance of weighted keys, which will seem to give...well, “weight” to the sound.

This is completely, utterly, and absolutely an illusion. There is NO difference in the output circuitry, or CPU, or anything else, between the XF8 and its “synth-key” siblings, the XF7 and
XF6. But if you’re playing weighted keys, you’re gaining some tactile feedback from doing so
which makes the sounds seem “richer, wider, deeper”.

I used to have a Yamaha KX88 which I would hook up via MIDI to my Yamaha DX7. Playing the DX7 from the KX88 always seemed to make the sound “more three-dimensional, heavier, richer, clearer”. This was all illusory, of course. It was just due to playing on a weighted controller.

You can assume or believe what you choose, but as a longtime consultant and sound designer for Yamaha for 24 years, I can assure you, beyond all doubt, that the outputs on
the XF8 are the same as those on the XF7 and XF6.