I need some advice on optimizing the piano voices provided with the MOXF. On the ‘Discovering the MOX DVD’, Phil Clendeninn advises us to connect the keyboard in stereo.  I have a single Roland KC-350 amp, which I have connected to the keyboard with the Right and Left Mono output jacks from the keyboard to the Right and Left Mono inputs in a single channel on the amp. (I have tried all of the different Channels on the amp). I have auditioned all of the Preset piano voices in the MOXF, and the only one that sounds like an acoustic piano in my opinion, is Pre1 A16 Monaural Grand MW. I think it is quite realistic, unlike the others.  The rest just don’t sound quite right. I have an acoustic grand piano, so I use that as a basis for comparison.  I previously had a Korg TR88 connected to the Roland amp in the same way, and in my opinion, all of the piano sounds from the Korg were more realistic.  In every other aspect, I greatly prefer the MOXF, but I need to know if I am doing something wrong in my setup on the MOXF. For example, is there a setting in Utility or somewhere else that I need to set up?

I have loaded a few other Yamaha piano voices such as the CP1 and S700, and they still don’t sound like I think they should.  Do I need to buy a second Roland amp to achieve the right sound? If so, that really makes gigging less convenient.

Several other pieces of information.
1. I think the voices sound better when using the headphones than when I use the amp. 
2. I have to turn the volume up quite a bit higher on the amp with the MOXF than with the Korg. This definitely noticeable with the Preset Piano voices, but much less so with other voices that I have loaded into the User Banks.
3. The amp is relatively new and I really don’t think there is any problem with it.
4. Using the EQ knobs and Shape switch doesn’t seem to make any difference.
5. Most of the piano voices (except for the Monaural Grand MW) seem a bit ‘tinny’ and even ‘muffled’ to me. If they sounded like that on my acoustic grand piano, I would bring in a tuner!
I realize that I could try to edit some of the piano voices, but I really think that there is something more systemic going on here. 

Hopefully the solution is simple and obvious to others.

chmoxf8 - 22 April 2014 10:26 AM

[...]I have auditioned all of the Preset piano voices in the MOXF, and the only one that sounds like an acoustic piano in my opinion, is Pre1 A16 Monaural Grand MW.[...]I think the voices sound better when using the headphones than when I use the amp.[...]Hopefully the solution is simple and obvious to others.

You’ve already determined what the problem is - stereo Voices don’t sound good when mixed to mono. The reason is phase cancellation, but that doesn’t change the solution - either play mono Voices, or get another powered speaker.

If you’re willing to do some editing, you could replace stereo Waveforms with mono ones, and probably create Voices that are more acceptable when played through a single-channel sound system. The MOXF Data List is helpful in determining which Stereo (St) Waveforms have mono (Mn) counterparts.

Agree with 5pin. Furthermore, that Roland amp is a piece of shite - sorry,
it just is. The worst keyboard amp in the world. Nothing is going to sound
good through that thing.

If your Korg pianos sounded good (relatively speaking), that’s because they were mono pianos as well.

You’re not alone in your frustration with live sound. I work as a tour keyboard tech/programmer, and when the band is on “wedges” (stage monitors), the foldback is mono and any sound using stereo effects or
dependent on stereo suffers. When the players are using “in-ears”, which
are stereo, they don’t have this problem. I’ve gotten around the mono
wedges problem by having the monitor guy set the keyboard monitor sends
out of phase (but the front of house channels are still in phase), which works.

Live sound, at best, is a compromise. Experienced touring keyboard players
learn to expect crappy monitors and they deal with it by focusing on
giving a great performance.

I would like to explore the option of getting another amp for my set-up at home.  I already have one Roland KC-350.  While I am sure that there are better amps available, it has certainly met my limited needs, other than as a single amp it can’t really reproduce stereo sound.  I suppose I can either buy another one, or consider getting two different amps.  Any suggestions?

Perhaps, I should add a few details about my speaker needs.  I am an amatuer keyboardist.  I played classical acoustic piano music for about 40 years and I am now interested in playing blues and rock with some other guitar musicians.  We primarily play in my large unfinished basement. I don’t go out on gigs, and don’t need speakers capable of being really loud. 
I play the piano about 90% of the time, and electric piano or organ the rest of the time. I usually play about 8 hours/week. I want the primary piano Voice that I use to be fairly similar to an acoustic piano.

Although I am currently using a single Roland KC-350, it appears that most of the forum users are not very impressed by this keyboard amp.  Since I have never used any other amps, I can’t compare it to anything else.  I can’t say that I am unhappy with it, but that may be because I haven’t heard anything better.

I now want to have 2 amps/speakers so that I can enjoy the MOXF8 in stereo. I could just buy another KC-350 to match my present amp, but that may just be compounding an error if it isn’t all that good of an amp.  I don’t have an unlimited budget, but I also don’t want to spend so little that I won’t be happy with the end result.

I have reviewed some of the forum comments on speakers, and I have seen references made to speakers such as the QSC K10 and the Yamaha StagePas 400i. The QSC is at the high end of what I would be willing to pay, since two of them would be around $1500. I realize that there are always better and probably much more expensive speakers, but I am just looking for the best within this price range, and I want to get it right this time around.

I await your comments.

I am very happy with my pair of These.

I also happen to own a KC-500, it makes a nice rolling cart.

A couple small powered speakers can be had for <$500. Plenty of power, and putting them on stands is such a boon that others can hear them and not being on the floor keeps the boom out of them from coupling. Look at stuff like 2 way mackie/behringer/yamaha, etc. You’ll recoup a little when you sell the roland. Best of luck, Shep

I appreciate your comments. With the Yamaha DXR-10, is a subwoofer needed?

chmoxf8 - 22 April 2014 04:26 PM

I appreciate your comments. With the Yamaha DXR-10, is a subwoofer needed?

I really like full frequency response, so I generally use a sub.  However, many people have found that the response is so good they don’t bother.

With the description you gave of your main instrument emulations, I would say that a sub is not required.

I use a couple of These to get them off the floor.

If you use them for the whole band to hear, put them on a couple of pole stands.

These speakers are so clean and powerful they really loaf most of the time...which is just what you want for true natural sound.

They are night and day for quality ‘acoustic piano’ sounds over the Roland amps.

You should probably try to audition a pair of DXR10 to determine if their frequency response gets low enough for your needs. Also, you might consider DXR12 or DXR15 if you decide you want more bottom but don’t want to use a sub.

Here’s a review of the 12 and 15 inch models:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may12/articles/yamaha-dxr.htm

EDIT: By the way, I don’t suggest getting a bigger speaker than what you need - bigger isn’t always better. My personal preference is to not exceed 12” for the main speakers. A 12” speaker has about 50% more cone area than a 10”, and all other things being equal (and with proper cabinet design), will have a lower resonant frequency. While those things tend to lead to better bass performance, the larger cone also has more mass, so the transient response isn’t quite as good as that of the smaller speaker. To put things in perspective, a single 15” has about 25% more cone area than two 10” drivers - if you must have a lot of bottom end, then you might consider a sub with a 15”.

chmoxf8 - 22 April 2014 03:24 PM

I have reviewed some of the forum comments on speakers, and I have seen references made to speakers such as the QSC K10 and the Yamaha StagePas 400i. I await your comments.

I’m using Yamaha StagePas 300 and I’m very satisfied. When I’m playing at home with reduced level (not to disturb anyone) it
has still clear sound from basses to high frequencies.
When I used it in some club, it has enough power to rock the audience. Moreover, you could connect mics and two or even three stereo keyboards.

Alex

Thanks for the great responses. I also spoke to a few people at Sweetwater.  Although they are not nearly as negative about the Roland amps as some users of this forum, by the end of my conversation, I made my decision. I have decided to replace my single Roland KC-350 amp.  Unless I change my mind, I will likely purchase two Yamaha DXR-10 active speakers, without a sub.  I think that they will suit my needs the best.  I will also put them on either stands or poles.  I will let you know about my experience with them once I have them set up. 

Any tips on positioning them for when I am playing solo?  Are they very directional like some stereo speakers?

chmoxf8 - 23 April 2014 10:49 AM

[...] Any tips on positioning them for when I am playing solo?  Are they very directional like some stereo speakers?

Since the DXRs are fan-cooled, although not excessively noisy, I’d suggest not placing them in extremely close proximity to your playing position. Assuming you place the speakers a reasonable distance apart, positioning yourself at a distance from each speaker equal to that between the speakers should be adequate and provide a good sound stage as well.

All speakers are at least somewhat directional, so angling them correctly is important. Since Yamaha has included a means of choosing to mount the DXRs either plumb or angled downward at 7 degrees, it would seem to indicate that they are aware of the directionality issue. The downward angling would come in handy particularly if the speakers are used under conditions where they’re mounted high.

The angle of the cabinet sides accommodates floor placement if desired. You’d have to determine if the bass response with that positioning is acceptable to you.

I had not really considered the noise factor from the DXR-10 fans into my consideration.  I am not sure that it would bother me, but I will have to check that out when I decide to make my purchase.  I am not sure though that I would be able to try them out at a shop when the environment was very quiet, since the local shop is usually busy and seldom quiet.  Since I am primarily playing in my basement, I would not place them much more than 5’ awaay from the keyboard on either side. Am I likely to hear the fans at that distance?  FYI, I am not particularly young and I am sure that my hearing is not as good as it used to be. So, I might not hear the fans even if they are close to me.

I don’t think that alternatives like the Yamaha StagePas 600i have fans.  I don’t really need a system that plays very loud, but I really want a high level of sonic fidelity.  How would you compare the DXR-10 and the StagePas 600i on that basis?

You’ll likely experiment with positioning. I use mine as tilt floor monitors when playing live. The amp section provides alternative attenuations for your given application.

Stone

Fans are very quiet, nothing like days of yore.