I’ve had the brand new unit for 3 months now.  I have the firewire card installed.  I am using the standalone editor (non-VST) and Studio Manager.  PC.  Win7 (32 bit).  All of the latest drivers.  Everything appeared to be working fine. 

About a month ago, I realized a problem saving my multis.  I run everything in multi-mode whether I am using one sound or 6.  Much easier to change programs that way… I only have about 20 multi’s programmed into the unit.  The problem that I am finding is that the unit is either changing the voices form what I had stored (no matter if from the ROM banks or the User banks) and secondarily, it won’t let me edit the programs once saved.

This does not happen on all the programs.  But, something as simple as changing a poly synth to mono - it won’t save that information.  Even if I load in a new voice that Yamaha designed as mono (like “EIGHT” in the synthesizer bank) will come out as a poly synth when I try and save the patch.  Another oddity is changing the volume of a voice that I deemed to be too loud at the performance.  I change the level to 100 and it keeps reverting to 127! 

I am saving the individual voices to a user bank (renamed of course), saving mixing, saving global, saving on the “save as” as a .X1e file - and ultimately saving by pushing STORE on the instrument.  I think I have well worn out the different combinations of saving.  I’ve even tried saving to the instrument after I’ve disconnected the editor…

I also don’t quite understand this “mixing voice” thing.  I read somewhere that it can be only 256 voices total (?) - but where are these stored?  I can’t “see” them anywhere on the editor or on the instrument.

Can somebody please help me here?

Sorry, but it isn’t clear as to what and where you are storing and saving your data.

Perhaps this will help: The EDITOR only documents a single MULTI.
The Motif Rack XS can hold 128 MULTIs.

Opening the Editor will bulk (send) the current 1 MULTI from the computer into the Edit Buffer of the hardware Motif Rack XS. If you STORE from the front panel of the Rack XS make sure you direct it to a specific numbered destination Multi location 1~128

If you are using the STORE function in the EDITOR, then you must be careful to heed the warning on page 11 of the Motif Rack XS Editor:

You can store the edited MULTI also by selecting [Store Mixing] under [Edit] in the menu bar. Note that this operation does not allow you to select the Multi number as destination and the edited Multi will be stored to the currently selected Multi number.

Hi Mr. Mister,

Thanks for replying.  I was starting to wonder if anyone could figure it out…

What was I not clear about (as far as saving the data)?  I’ve saved everything that I could find - once I found out of this problem.  The first 15 multi’s that I programmed seemed to store just fine for me.  I did those on the front panel of the instrument.  I edited with the editor but saved with the front panel buttons.  I later came to the realization that any voice that I would edit needed to be saved into the computer - or it would revert to, let’s say User Bank 1 #1.  It would point to the voice there, but if I had not saved it, it would be the default Yamaha voice stored in that location. 

I would only save from the front panel - if that would make things easier.  I read that anytime you change the parameters on a voice, that you should store that as a mixing voice - or it will be saved with it’s original parameter data.  Is that correct? The manual does not make 100% sense.  I took it over to a buddy’s house a week ago.  Between us, we have been programming synths for over 50 years.  I have at least 14 Yamaha products (going back to when I edited the FB01 on a Commodore 64).  My friend is a Grammy award winning recording engineer.  Neither of us had much luck with reading the manual or figuring this out…

As stated, the first few worked fine.  I thought I had it down.  When I took it to my friend’s, we specifically were just trying to get one of the synths to save as monotonic - but it kept reverting to poly, no matter what we tried.  We found that switch on the “Common” page.  Nothing we tried would save that setting.

Since the editor and instrument are linked (synched), I have been calling up the sounds from the front panel of the instrument - so the saving of the mixing data IS going back to the currently selected Multi patch.  This doesn’t seem to be an issue.

We were also not clear about what is happening when the instruments are synching up… Is it sending all of the sounds at that point (either to or from the instrument)?  It takes darn near forever.  I’m using the USB interface.  The editor doesn’t hold any actual voices, but just “pointers” to the voice data that is in the instrument and we are just manipulating that, right?  I’d think maybe a few KB per multi… That’s how all others work.  Am I way off here?  So, what is it sending and why does this take so long? 

I’ve got two gigs on Friday.  Would surely like to have the issue resolved by then…

I’ve got two gigs on Friday.  Would surely like to have the issue resolved by then…

Well, then we better get to communicating rather quickly. Not sure what winning a Grammy has to do with setting up a synth and 50 years ago might take you back to when synthesizers were only in Bell Labs :-)

But I “get it”, you think this should be a lot easier than it is. Hopefully, I can help. I will say that working the Rack unit is a bit more difficult than the keyboard version - because you must work with the EDITOR to get at editing in depth. And the computer Editing scenario is not for everyone.

The older the synthesizer (and particularly analog synthesizer) the less parameters it had to edit. One knob/one function synthesizers did not have Edit Buffers, nor the ability to even [STORE] setups, so actually they were a lot easier. (Or we just were satisfied earlier in the editing process because, basically there was no where’s near the number of parameters you have now!)

To the issue:
First: terminology! We need to get straight exactly what we are talking about.
[STORE] is the operation where you are writing the data to the internal memory of the Motif-Rack XS.
“Save” is the operation of making a file that gets written to your computer’s hard drive.

_ STORE, for example, writes a VOICE to the USER Bank of the Motif-Rack XS
_ STORE, writes a MULTI to the MULTI bank of the Motif-Rack XS
_ SAVE writes a Motif-Rack XS Editor FILE to your computer’s hard drive. A file with the extension (.X1E) is a Motif-Rack XS Editor File.

So for our purposes: STORE means to the hardware. SAVE means to the computer. OK?

The first 15 multi’s that I programmed seemed to store just fine for me.  I did those on the front panel of the instrument.  I edited with the editor but saved with the front panel buttons.  I later came to the realization that any voice that I would edit needed to be saved into the computer - or it would revert to, let’s say User Bank 1 #1.  It would point to the voice there, but if I had not saved it, it would be the default Yamaha voice stored in that location.

I get that you are working only in MULTI mode and that you were having success working from the front panel of the Rack XS. Then you say you had a realization (trouble, perhaps) because now you are talking about editing a “VOICE”. A Voice, as you know, is an individual instrument program. What we need to determine is: Are you editing the parameters of the MULTI - the PART parameters, or are you creating a new VOICE. The devil is really in the details here.

If you are in a MULTI: there are 16 slots in a MULTI each slot contains 1 VOICE.
The “slots” are called “PARTS” (Very important).

When editing anything on a modern synth, you are working in an EDIT BUFFER… when you complete your work you must STORE that work to a USER location.

Trust me, once we determine exactly *HOW* you are editing (what parameters) we can better help you understand why some values seem to revert back or why some values seem not to be retained.

When you are in VOICE mode creating an original Voice, you should take the time to change the name. Why? So that you can clearly identify it as one of YOURS, and not “one of Yamaha’s” (they are all Yamaha’s - but by renaming the Voice, not only will it help you ensure that it is the one you are accessing but it will help you keep track of where you have put it. Say you have selected a VOICE like the “Full Concert Grand” Piano sound - there are several ways you can edit this sound.

You can edit it a very deep level with the EDITOR or you can simply apply “offsets” to the values that are preset by Yamaha. OFFSET parameter edits, simply add or subtract values from a specific parameter as preset in the VOICE. The “Full Concert Grand” VOICE has 8 oscillators, 8 Amplitude Envelope Generators, 8 Filters, 8 Filter Envelope Generators, etc., etc., etc. hundreds of parameters actually.

In the very deep level of editing you can change each and every parameter.
On the OFFSET level of editing you turn one knob, say filter Cutoff, and what you are doing is adding or subtracting values to all 8 Filters, simultaneously. 

You can see why when performing it might not be prudent to adjust 8 individual Filter Cutoffs together, when you just want to brighten the overall sound. But it is those 8 individual Filters, each with a a score of parameters, that make the Voice sound as it does. So in depth editing establishes the Voice’s character, while the PART Edit Offsets are for quick overall adjustments.

So we have to determine just what you are editing to know whether the Edit gets ported over when you move that VOICE into a MULTI. In depth editing, if stored properly to USER Voice location will be automatically there when you access the VOICE in a MULTI. The OFFSETS may not be.

If, for example, you edit one of Yamaha’s default Voices by changing the assigned Insertion Effect or by changing one of the 8 assigned FILTERs from a 24dB per Octave LPF to a 6dB per Octave BPF, you will want to also change the name of the VOICE and store it to a specific USER VOICE Bank location. When you access that VOICE in your MULTI it will bring most everything along.

You want to ensure that you use that particular Voice when you return to MULTI mode.

If, however, you are simply editing the OFFSET parameters and not the deep VOICE parameters, then you just need to [STORE] the MULTI. For example, PART parameters are those you can get to while you are still in MULTI mode, they include things like the VOLUME, PAN position, Effect Send amount, Cutoff, Resonance, EQ, etc..

Continued.....

.......Continued

Your recording engineer friend will understand this from this view;

Editing the VOICE is like asking the musician to change something personal on their instrument. Like a Guitar player deciding what settings for his own Distortion and wah-wah pedal.

Editing the PART, however, is more like messing with the signal once it is in the recording console. In the recording console each of the individual instruments arrives in a similar fashion… As the recording engineer, he does not control the Distortion and wah-wah, those are controlled by the guitar player out in the studio. What the engineer can influence is the things that arrive in the control room console - in a specific input channel.

The control room console with its input channels is the MULTI PARTS and those parameters that add to or subtract from what the individual musician (VOICE) has as apart of its sound. In the MULTI each PART has a 3-band PART EQ.
The individual musician and their instrument is the VOICE in VOICE mode.

So are you editing the PARTS parameters or VOICE parameters? That is our first thing to establish.

The more specific you can be the better I will be able to help you.

Certain parameters that you can edit in VOICE mode are stripped off when you place that VOICE in a MULTI. Your engineer friend will understand this as follows:

When a sound is in VOICE mode, the Insertion Effects belong to the individual musician.
The System Effects (Reverb and Chorus), however, are the effects that are “external” (they recreate the environment’s reverberations, and the “Chorus” effect processor is a time delay effect). They belong to the “studio”. The SYSTEM Effects are routed to by a SEND/RETURN situation (like two AUX SENDS on the console) There is a summing amp, an overall SEND into the effect, there is a RETURN from the Effect to the main stereo output.

The SYSTEM EFFECTS processors are available to the VOICE in VOICE mode, but when the Voice is placed in the PART of a multi-timbral setup (the MULTI), it is like the musician signal coming to the recording console: The amount of reverb that you used in VOICE mode, for example, is stripped off. 

In a MULTI, it is exactly like on a mixing console that has all channels zeroed out (set to a neutral condition), all the Individual channels Reverb’s are reset. The Reverb send from Voice mode is stripped off, like the recording console channel being “zeroed out”. This will make sense to your engineer friend - because the amount of Reverb when the signal is alone (Voice mode) is not meaningful when the sound is placed in an ensemble. You want to decide how much reverb is appropriate for the combination of instruments (the MULTI mode).

There are dozen or so parameters that are automatically reset in a similar fashion when you place a VOICE in a PART of a MULTI.

Why are some parameters stripped off and some parameters are changed completely?
Because in MIDI, which was introduced in 1982 (I’m sure you remember) they came up with some basic defaults (rules) - you can think of these defaults as the settings they decided would qualify as the mixing board being “zeroed out”.

Volume, when a VOICE is placed in a multi-timbral setup, will be reset to 100 (on a scale of 0-127) - similar to how the channels of mixer are all set to nominal 0. Pan positions are all reset to Center, etc., that type of default starting-point settings.

Please provide specifics, if you can. The theory of operation - may or may not be helpful. But as you can tell it is a deep architecture with a lot of editing layers.

Let us know.

Wow!  Thank you!  That is a lot of good information!  Why didn’t you write the manual?  ;-)

The theory of operation is a great thing.  I “get it” and it doesn’t bore me in the least.  My friend and I both have degrees in Electronic Engineering from the mid-80’s and we’ve both specialized in audio our whole lives.  He’s exclusively a recording guy, while “most” of my experience is in Live sound engineering, repairs, and performance.  I record too - but he helped engineer a grammy winning album.  I just brought that up because every kid with an SM-58 and some sort of recorder fancies himself a “recording engineer” these days… We do this professionally is how I should have put it.

You are right.  I meant to say that I am having a problem with the PARTS.  I’ve tried this many different ways.  In fact, I went into voice mode and edited a few (and successfully STORED the voices) for a special show a few weeks ago (not with my normal band).  The voice mode presented me no problems.

It looks like I am down to two multis that are causing me the headaches.  On one, it has re-written my sounds for two or 3 of the PARTS - while leaving the other PARTS alone.  I use two keyboards.  I am zoning one keyboard into as many as 4 splits while leaving the other as 6 octaves and it is mapped just to channel 16.  So, I am not using 16 PARTS, I might move it up to PART #4 and un-assign the MIDI channel to the other parts. Is it better if I initialize the voices on the other parts - or does it hurt anything or take any more resources to use the stock “Concert Grand Piano” sound there?

That’s the issue on that MULTI patch.  I haven’t had a chance to try and re-edit it yet.  That’s the task for tonight.

The other multi is the one that’s been driving me crazy - and the only one that Andy and I were dealing with the other day.  I need a mono synth PART and it seems to keep re-writing itself as POLY.  On most synthesizers, this switch is in the oscillator section.  On yours it seems to me under PART COMMON on the editor.  I don’t see any way to save the common info.  This was stated in the original question.  We tried to SAVE it AND STORE it every way we could.  Storing the parts, storing the MULTI (on the instrument), storing as a MULTI, saving the .x1e file, trying to store it after the editor was disconnected.  It keeps wanting to revert back to the POLY voice.  Another thing I tried (also on the common) was that I have two different string patches which I am panning left and right.  I have successfully STORED and SAVED the new patches that I tried, the change in their levels, their pan info.  I was trying (on the oscillator editor page) to change the fine tune to make the “stereo” more obvious.  Like -5 cents on the left and +5 cents on the right.  I don’t “think” that saved… Gawd, I wish I was right next to the unit, but wanted to possibly write this and perhaps get another response tonight… Not sure where you are located.  (I am in the US - EDT time zone - 5-ish PM now.)

So, I think I am just applying the “offsets” to your programs here.  Not any of the deep edit stuff yet.  I’d better learn to walk before I can run…

When you have time, could you explain the theory behind this “synchronization” and why it takes so long?  I am still unclear as to whether I should be uploading or downloading to the unit - and whether I should click on all 3 sync options (Voice, Common, something else...) or is that what is overwriting and causing my problem.  I just don’t get it.  I know everything we are hearing is from the INSTRUMENT - I am not sending audio data over the USB - only the pointers to make the offests - but why does that sync take so long (close to a minute)?  Is it trying to send the info on all 128 voices - or just the one I am trying to edit?  And, then again, if I am hearing the sound the way that I want it to be, why can’t I just hit STORE on the INSTRUMENT once I have it the way I like it.  I realize that it would not be saved as an .x1e file in that case, but I just need this to work.  Screw the “backup” until it does work.

If I can just get this one PART STORED (as a monotonic synth) by tomorrow I’d consider that like clearing the 9’ bar in the high jump! (Shameless post-Olympics reference)

When you have time, could you explain the theory behind this “synchronization” and why it takes so long?

The upload and download during the synchronization process can take a long time but only according to the options you mark for the AUTO SYNC SETTINGs. You have three options that you can synchronize:
Global settings (UTILITY mode settings)
Current meaning the 1 MULTI or signle VOICE you are working with.
Voice which will synchronzie all the User Voices and Drum kits in the Motif-Rack XS.

While in typical use you might want to synchronzie the Global and the Current MULTI, it is the very, very rare occasion that you need to re-synchronize all the Voices - so when you SETUP your Motif-Rack XS Editor you should uncheck the VOICE option under AUTO SYNC SETTINGS.

If you have it set to ON, then everytime the unit is brought ONLINE the Voices that are already in your Motif-Rack XS are restored. They really don’t need to be re-synchronized, and there is no reason for you to have to wait for the unit to bulk all that data - it is only replacing the VOICES with the data that is exactly the same.

So the solution is to uncheck the box.
When you launch the Motif-Rack XS Editor
Click on FILE > SETUP > under AUTO SYNC SETTINGS
Set the VOICE option = OFF.

Thank you!  That will speed things up tremendously!

But, what I really need to know (ASAP) is how to change that polytonic synth sound to mono - and STORE it…

Sorry, for the delay… had to get face-to-face with a Motif-Rack XS to be sure I was not telling you something that was not the case.

When you are using the Motif-Rack XS in MULTI mode (where each of the 16 PARTS is capable of receiving on its own MIDI channel)

Press [EDIT]
The EDIT SELECT screen appears. You can select either COMMON parameters or any of the 16 PARTs. Since the mono/poly mode parameter is configure on a per PART basis you need to highlight the number of the PART you wish to Edit. (Once on a PART Edit screen you move between PARTS using the [<] Left/[>] Right Cursor arrows).

Highlight the number, press [ENTER] to view the Edit options for the PART
Select “PLAY MODE” > Press [ENTER]
Use the DOWN CURSOR to advance to Page 2 of 4 in this area of the editing screens
On Page 2 you will find the MONO/POLY parameter.

According to the documentation, the MONO/POLY mode of a Voice should be a parameter that is automatically respected when a VOICE is placed in a MULTI.

Let’s verify this. As an experiment please select the following VOICE for a PART

Start with an initialized MULTI - so that you do not inherit any programming
You initialize a MULTI by holding these two buttons down simultaneously for 2 seconds: [MULTI] + [ENTER]

From the “INITIALIZED MULTI” screen
Press [EDIT]
Select PART 1 > ENTER
Select VOICE > ENTER
BANK: PRE 5
NUMBER: 051 “Early Lead”

Press [EXIT]
Select “Play Mode”
Cursor Down to Page 2 of 4

The Mono/Poly parameter should automatically be set to “MONO” - because the VOICE is mono in VOICE mode. If you press [STORE] and store this MULTI - the parameter will be stored within this MULTI.

If you unit is not behaving like this - then let us know.