I have a MOX8 with a Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal attached. When I press it down with piano voices it works as expected, but if I layer strings or brass or synth, these just play continuously after the sustain pedal is released and do not stop until I either switch voices or change to a different mode.

Is this normal behaviour? Is it possible to use the sustain pedal for strings so that the sustain ceases after releasing the pedal?

Any help would be appreciated as this is very annoying.

All the best,

Graeme

The sustain pedal (in the real world) works properly on the piano. There is no set way that it is ‘supposed to’ work on any other instrument. For example, if you were to list the instruments in the real world that have sustain pedals you would be hard pressed to create a list.

Here’s how it works and why:

The piano is in the family of instruments called Percussion instruments (these are hammered, struck or sometimes plucked). They all have a similar type of loudness shape (envelope) where after the initial percussive attack, there is a drop in energy before the body of the sound sustains for a time, then air friction and gravity bring the vibration to an end. Significantly, all percussive instruments will have the vibration come to end (even the piano with the sustain pedal held… will eventually die out).

The MO-X envelope (AEG or Amplitude Envelope Generator) is responsible for describing the loudness shape of the VOICE you are playing. This description is done with TIME and LEVEL parameters that control the movement of the loudness over time. (see graphics attached)

The TIME and LEVEL parameters describe how the sound proceeds over time. On all percussion family instruments DECAY 2 LEVEL will be 0 (first graphic). That is how the envelope will describe a sound that eventually has a vibration that is stopped by friction or gravity. The sustain pedal can only HOLD sound indefinitely if the AEG is programmed such that the envelope (level) does not reach a 0 value before the RELEASE stage. RELEASE is when KEY OFF occurs (see second graphic)

The other type or family of real world instruments are those that are described as Self-oscillating. They work on a different cause or trigger for the vibration and they maintain their vibration in a completely different way. These are instruments that work with a vibrating column of air (that is your Reed family) and those that work with a vibrating string that is put in motion with a Bow that is drawn across the strings. Both of these performing gestures can be maintained indefinitely by the musician. (Significantly none of these instruments have sustain pedals).

All Reed family instruments (which include all single reed, double reed, jet reed, and lip reed instruments) can maintain the vibration via a technique called “circular breathing”.

All Bowed family instruments can maintain the vibration by simply using a technique that reverses the direction of the bow.

The AEG description of these envelopes will have the DECAY 2 LEVEL greater than zero. Anytime the DECAY 2 LEVEL is greater than 0 the sound will not die out as long as the key is depressed or the sustain pedal is held. The VOLUME will be latched at the LEVEL of DECAY 2.

As you can tell on a percussion instrument like piano, the sound will eventually die out (no matter how slowly… which is determined by the DECAY 2 TIME). But an Amplitude Envelope describing a self-oscillating instrument will need to have the option of sustaining indefinitely - again on the real thing it is an option of the player. On a keyboard you would control this by maintaining the KEY ON (either with your fingers or the sustain pedal).

So back to the sustain pedal, how it works on the piano (the only instrument that really uses one), and how it works on other sounds is a function of the AEG (described above). How it, the sustain pedal, works on any other sound is really a matter of your choice. There is no normal way or usual way, there is only: It either works like it does no a PERCUSSION envelope or how it works on a SELF-OSCILLATING instruments envelope.

I have a MOX8 with a Yamaha FC3 sustain pedal attached. When I press it down with piano voices it works as expected, but if I layer strings or brass or synth, these just play continuously after the sustain pedal is released and do not stop until I either switch voices or change to a different mode.

What you describe here is NOT typical - you are saying that the strings, brass or synth sound play continuously after the sustain pedal is released - that describes a STUCK NOTE and is not related to the sustain pedal, necessarily.

When a sustain pedal and/or a Key is released, it will always be true that the RELEASE stage of the envelope will begin (at that moment) be it immediately. This is the case whether or note the envelope has completed some portion or all of its journey… as soon as the key is released or the pedal is released, the RELEASE (TIME) stage of the envelope will take over. There is no RELEASE LEVEL parameter because it would always be 0 (make sense?). Music is about sound and then silence - so when the instrument is RELEASED it stops making sound - and RELEASE LEVEL describes that silence - that is always going to be true.

If you have a situation where after KEY OFF you have sound that remains until you switch VOICES, that is a MIDI condition called a “Stuck Note” and is a completely different problem. Please describe what else may be the cause - additional editing you have done, knobs you have adjusted, etc.

By the way - the AEG is a parameter within the VOICE and each Element has its own AEG

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Bad Mister,

Thanks for your very detailed reply.

What I am seeing is definitely “stuck note”. I have not changed any settings at all other than layering strings on top of the piano. When I press the sustain pedal whatever note is pressed remains indefinitely (for the strings) even if I release the note and the pedal until I change voices or go to performance mode.

I did expect that the strings (or any other oscillator driven voice)would hold until note release, but I am definitely seeing stuck note instead.

Can I change any parameters to avoid this?

Your help is very much appreciated.

All the best,

Graeme

Graeme

gfullick - 12 December 2011 06:06 PM

What I am seeing is definitely “stuck note”. I have not changed any settings at all other than layering strings on top of the piano. When I press the sustain pedal whatever note is pressed remains indefinitely (for the strings) even if I release the note and the pedal until I change voices or go to performance mode.

I did expect that the strings (or any other oscillator driven voice)would hold until note release, but I am definitely seeing stuck note instead.

Can I change any parameters to avoid this?

Another possibility is that you might be using a non-Yamaha sustain pedal of the wrong polarity. If the polarity is backwards, notes will sustain when you release the pedal. Might that be what is happening here?

Thanks for your reply.

I am using a Yamaha FC3 - so I know that the polarity is correct.

I face the same problem with my MOX too. Funnily my Yamaha Electone EL-90 can do sustain for every other tone perfectly.

I did expect that the strings (or any other oscillator driven voice)would hold until note release, but I am definitely seeing stuck note instead.

Can I change any parameters to avoid this?

Okay, I was not sure. Here is what I would check.

Sustain Pedal mode
Verify that the FC3 pedal is fully inserted in the jack (very important to check the analog world first) then…
Press [UTILITY]
Press [F4] CTL ASN (Controller Assign)
Press [SF2] FT SW
Make sure the SUSTAIN PEDAL parameter is = FC3(Half On)

Verify MIDI connections
Since stuck notes are often associated with MIDI connections disconnect any USB “To Host” connection, and/or 5-pin MIDI cables while troubleshooting this issue

Factory Reset
If you have not done so, STORE whatever you are currently working on, and the SAVE an ALL data file (.X4A) to your USB drive, because a Factory Set will eliminate all USER data and restore it to how the unit was when you took it out of the box.

Factory Set:
Press [UTILITY]
Press [JOB]
Press [ENTER]
Press [ENTER]

With the unit disconnected from any MIDI devices, test your FC3 pedal again. Let us know.

Thanks for your reply Bad Mister. I am currently away from my MOX for a week now (not good I know) travelling for work. I will give your suggestions of a factory reset a try as soon as I get back. I did check the connection and the setting (was set to FC3(half on)) when I was trying to isolate the cause. When I first came across this problem I had not connected my MOX to a computer - so the cable issue is out as well.

Will let you know how I get on.

Once again thank you very much for the great help - it is much appreciated.

All the best,

Graeme

Bad Mister,

I have just completed the factory reset of my MOX. Even after this the problem remains. If I set the voice to strings, then press a key with the sustain pedal down the voice sounds indefinitely. The only way to stop it is to change voices, or modes.

Is this normal behaviour?

I have checked the pedal and it is set to FC-3 half on as described and the connection is correct. In piano mode the pedal works as expected.

All the best,

Graeme

Yeap! Mine too. I think it only works for Piano voice.

I have just completed the factory reset of my MOX. Even after this the problem remains. If I set the voice to strings, then press a key with the sustain pedal down the voice sounds indefinitely. The only way to stop it is to change voices, or modes.

Is this normal behaviour?

No. It is not.

You should be able to stop the strings by lifting your foot off the pedal. Are you saying that lifting your foot does not stop the strings. Please indicate which specific VOICE or VOICES this occurs on. Please, thanks.

Also - what are you connected to via MIDI? Stuck notes are typically caused by MIDI loops but it would seem that would cause this behavior on all sounds. but let us know.

Dily, (Please Don’t Hijack) - we kind of doubt that you are having the exact same issue, please read through the entire thread - the original poster is having a “stuck note” issue. The original poster steps on the sustain pedal and the only way to get the sound to stop is to change programs, - that is a problem.  Not behaving like an Electone is NOT a problem - there are design concept reasons for that.

Bad_mister, HELLO. Knock knock are you blind?!?!?!

I don’t think I have been talking about the Electone so far since you said I should stop talking about it. It will be nice of you not to refer to that again - that is if you do not want to bring another unnecessary argument between us again. Thanks!

For your information, I am referring to gfullick’s latest post. Did gfullick mention anything about releasing the pedal in his latest post? Nope he didn’t!

gfullick - 24 December 2011 08:33 AM

Bad Mister,

I have just completed the factory reset of my MOX. Even after this the problem remains. If I set the voice to strings, then press a key with the sustain pedal down the voice sounds indefinitely. The only way to stop it is to change voices, or modes.

Is this normal behaviour?

I have checked the pedal and it is set to FC-3 half on as described and the connection is correct. In piano mode the pedal works as expected.

All the best,

Graeme

See, I always read.

Bad Mister,

This is happening for all strings and organ voices that I have tried. I am not connected to MIDI in any way. The MOX is operating totally independent of any other device. I will try another pedal and see if I get the same problem occurring, and let you know the result.

I need a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer to the following two questions:
1) The only way to get the sound to stop is to change programs?
2) When you release the sustain pedal the string and organ sounds continue, even though no key is pressed?

And can you give us one specific VOICE on which this happens. Name please. Thank you.

gfullick

Instead of buying another new pedal just to find out whether your current one is faulty, I would suggest you bring your current one to the Music shop where you bought it from and try it on a few Yamaha Synths which are on display, but do seek permission first from the product specialist or sales consultant there before you plug your pedal to their Synths. That way you don’t have to buy another pedal if your current one isn’t faulty.

Just to let you feel at ease with your issue, whenever I release my pedal the sound stops. Is yours the same? If not then I think your MOX “might” be faulty or your pedal is.

Dili,

Thanks for your suggestion. Fortunately I have a couple of other keyboards and one of the pedals works on my MOX. It seems that my FC3 is the culprit (luckily it is not the MOX), as with my M-audio pedal the sounds stop when I release the pedal. When I connect the FC3 the sounds are continuous even when I release the pedal - stuck note as Bad Mister described. I believe the behaviour of note sustain till pedal release is normal for strings so I am happy with this.

Thanks to Bad Mister and Dili for your help on this one. I think that I now have it sorted - and I will return my FC3 for replacement.

All the best,

Graeme