One of the reasons given for why Yamaha didn’t add full Midi Sequence editing to the Montage is that Musicians that typically own a Motif do their serious sequencing in Cubase or some other computer daw.  And since they were targeting Motif owners, why duplicate the effort in the Montage.

But could it be that musicians use Cubase, because sequencer memory is limited to 1024 kb on the Motif and they had no choice but to use a daw for serious sequencing?  And if there were more sequencing storage on the Motif they wouldn’t be forced into Cubase? or some other Daw?

Since there is the Yamaha/Steinberg connection why couldn’t Cubase be added to the Motif?

No one could make the argument that it would make the instrument more complicated, because those Cubase musicians are already using Cubase. Motif-Cubase would be simpler than its computer standalone because of the built in surface (that is the Motif!) Sure it would make the Motif cost a little more but that cost balances out if you don’t have to buy a computer.  My Cubase set up is running on a 17 inch Mac book Pro, which cost me about $2,300 when I bought it.  I only use it for integration with my MOX/Motif.  I would have been willing to pay an extra $300-$500 on the Motif, if I didn’t have to buy the $2,300 computer!
And lets not mention the cost of a full professional copy of Cubase.

Why couldn’t Yamaha release a new Motif with Cubase built in and enough sequencer memory to do the trick?  Maybe call it Motif-C8 as in Motif with (Cubase integration)?

I think a lot of musicians would welcome a new Motif-C8, C7, annd C6 LOL.

Too many people would lose the mouse at gigs, and believe it or not, that wouldn’t even be the biggest obstacle.

How about transplanting a Super Knob on to a Motif just for the purpose of controlling an internally loaded version of Cubase, but this time, Cubase actually appears on a kind of floating, gas based heads-up display.

The heads-up display remains gyroscopically corrected at all times including whilst dancing and playing.

Way_ne - 01 March 2017 02:19 PM

Too many people would lose the mouse at gigs, and believe it or not, that wouldn’t even be the biggest obstacle.

LOL, I don’t literally mean add The Cubase user interface. My apologies :-) I mean some useful bits and pieces of the Cubase engine.  Nothing that would dramatically change the Motif interface.  (which is just fine imo).

In retrospect, if Yamaha took the Motif Sequencer memory to ! or 2 GB, and had a little more integration with wav files that would go a loooooong way.

Yea man, no mouse LOL.

The sequencing capabilities on the Motif rock.  But the sequencer memory is under powered 1024 kb, (ouch) and the midi/wav integration could use some improvement.  Some of the jobs under pattern mode, and song mode, could be given a little more flexibility and range.  The mixing mode very powerful for live performance, very powerful for song and pattern editing, but it could be made to be more flexible in the context of sequencing midi/wav stuff.

For the record I have Cubase and use it only when forced, and usually I’m forced because limitations on sequencer memory on my Motif and MOX.  When I suggest adding Cubase to the Motif, I guess I really mean is for Yamaha to take away any reason for Motif owners to have to use Cubase or any other DAW for Midi sequencing if they don’t want to.  And I’m one of those that don’t want to! For my final tracking and audio recording I use TASCAM portastudio and I send the wav files from the portastudio to the guys that do the mastering.  But I do my day to day sequencing in the Motif/Mox .  Occasionally, limitation on sequencer memory, and some of the limitation of the jobs in pattern/song mode force me to Cubase to finish the sequencing :-(

I take full advantage of swapping my sequences in and out to the USB to keep as much sequencer memory as free as possible, but.......  1024kb can be annoying.

I’d say that it’s likely a bit late in product cycle for the XF family to get any signifigant upgrades.

The MX recently had some fettling with a minor update, the XF is done, and the MoXF, as is, has been going a good while now.

Whether or not that’ll get tweaked in a similar fashion to the MX, or stay as is until whenever, is anyone’s guess.

I don’t imagine it’ll be too long before there’s whatever trickle down new model from the the chip and other stuff in the Montage, but when, and in what form, would be the usual Association of 5 Dollar Palm-readers’ Annual Vegas Seminar.

One would think and hope there’ll still be something in the new family to come for the onboard sequencer crowd, since there still seems to be some level of demand. Maybe enough demand for at least one model along those lines. 

Frankly, a MoXF-tier successor simply with the new Montage AWM wave ROM, user Flash storage and whatever other enhancements might be included would be a fantastic board, especially if at somewhere near the current mid-tier price. Aftertouch keys, bigger display along the lines of the XF, the new AWM stuff, more or less plonked onto the MoXF could do a pretty good job of replacing both it and the XF for a quite a few people, given how much of the flagship was offered for so much less.

Maybe that’ll include even some extra sequencer memory.

Until such time as whatever’s next due to get released gets released, there’s not much anyone can can do, other than maybe get their palm read.

5 Dollar Palm reading LOL,

points well taken., yea and I was guessing the Motif was basically done when they came out with the MOX then I knew it was done when they came out with MOXF.

I guess I’m jumping ahead for when they update MOXF or kind a smash the MOXF and the Montage together.

There are many keyboard players who love the computer based Sequencer and have good reason to see all of its advantages.  But there has always been and probably will always be those keyboard players that prefer on board sequencers.

Yesterday I took some time to try to do an objective comparison between my Mac-Based Cubase AI 5 sequencing capabilities and my Motif/Mox on board sequencers.  And what that little exercise did was just reinforce
how truly awesome it is to have such a complete integration with Song mode/ Pattern Mode, Mixing Mode, Voice Mode, and the on board sequencer LOL.  And if the Motif had more sequencer memory and few extra features added to the jobs category, I’d have a perfect world.  I get what Yamaha was trying to do with the Montage, but I think leaving out a full blown sequencer was a mistake.

Unless the true goal was to migrate all Yamaha Motif keyboard players to computer based daws and ultimately to Cubase in the cloud as a service where you pay a monthly fee to do midi/wav sequencing and editing.  And I reeeallly hope that’s not the case LOL I heard Adobe made that move on graphic artists by putting Illustrator, Photoshop in the cloud and charging a subscription fee, if that’s true..,.  It would be a sad day if Yamaha/Steinberg are herding keyboard players to the cloud in a similar fashion.

Search for Motif Nandrelone in the archives.
Been suggested :-)

Hi Wellie, been a while! Good to hear from you again.

I recall Sound On Sound magazine pointing out in it’s review of the original Motif that the ability to have each track loop independent of the others isn’t possible in Cubase, not then and not now. That’s just one useful feature of the Motif that comes to mind.

I still do most of my sequencing with my XF, I just don’t find Cubase user friendly. After a decade I still find myself opening up the manual all the time to do simple things. I can’t count the times I have had to reprogram the audio and MIDI settings when the software loses it’s memory and stops working. Although I’ve tried to do projects completely in Cubase, I always end up getting frustrated and go back to tools I can fly around on...the Motif sequencer and Ableton Live which is a fantastic audio recorder but only a so-so MIDI sequencer.

Wellie - 12 March 2017 04:25 PM

Search for Motif Nandrelone in the archives.
Been suggested :-)

LOL, I did find and read this thread:

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/archive/viewthread/168582/P0/

OMG good stuff.

For the most part…

Motif + Tascam Portastudio gets it done.  With very little shenanigans.

I guess all I really want is more sequencer memory on my motif, a little more flexibility in the pattern & song jobs, and a little more wav compatibility. 

But even if it never happens,, I’m good with the gear I have, if I’m lucky it will last a looooooong time.

I checked that thread out.
Surprised to see some of it make it even to the XS and XF.
Montage has taken the synth side of the equation far further.
We shall have to see what Yamaha come out with next. I do hope some kind of workstation reappears, though it may be relatively dumb and linked to an iPad or other device.

Wellie - 13 March 2017 03:57 PM

I checked that thread out.
Surprised to see some of it make it even to the XS and XF.
Montage has taken the synth side of the equation far further.
We shall have to see what Yamaha come out with next. I do hope some kind of workstation reappears, though it may be relatively dumb and linked to an iPad or other device.

I have listened to several Yamaha reps make the case that IPhone, and IPad are readily accessible and you can do midi editing right on them.  Anybody that loves to edit and mix on the Motif will quickly tell you that one of the nice things about doing it on the motif is everything is right there all the integration with voice mode, arpeggiators, ctrl sets, mixing mode all tightly integrated.  They would have to completely put the motif in an IPHONE app or IPAD app, and even then its just not the same.

1.  Your Motif is dedicated to the Motif and nothing else.  A IPHONE or IPAD is for all intentional purposes a general purpose computer that has many tasks and is multitasking at all times, including when you’re attempting to use it as a Motif Sequencer.

2.  An IPHONE/IPAD app will never be as integrated as the onboard MOTIF sequencer if for no other reason than IPHONE is a separate physical device that needs its own power supply, has its own replacement cycle, upgrade cycle, separate versioning that is bound to get out of whack with the Motif over time. let not talk about the battery/charging issues (right when I need it most damn battery is dead).  You can lose it, it requires a monthly payment in the form of keeping the service on, etc.

3. As we have recently learned the CIA/FBI blah, blah have a back door to your IPHONE and IPAD, and most other computers.  When the CIA has it, that means others, eventually get it (the current affairs back me up on this one). Sometimes the intelligence community borrow technology from criminals LOL.  The last thing I want is someone hacking my cellphone and taking my music.  These devices are almost inherently vulnerable to cyber mischief.  I don’t have to worry about cyber issues when I’m editing on my Motif.  But if you force me to integrate my Motif with a computer now you open my music up to viruses, ransom ware, cyber mischief of all varieties.

The Motif is almost perfect, outside of adding more sequencer memory and polyphony, maybe all Yamaha needs to do is produce it in more metallic colors e.g teal, silver, red, fuchsia, deep purple, LOL.  You’d be surprised how hot some fresh colors would make the MOTIF!

lastmonk - 13 March 2017 09:40 PM

[...] maybe all Yamaha needs to do is produce it in more metallic colors e.g teal, silver, red, fuchsia, deep purple, LOL.  You’d be surprised how hot some fresh colors would make the MOTIF!

It wouldn’t surprise some of us.  :-)
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/462519/P15/

lastmonk,

As a grayhaired old geezer I feel for your thoughts about using phones and tablets but as a veteran electrical engineer I know that these mobile devices have taken over the world. My phone can be used to control my TV, my camera and my XF. With my voice! Most people really don’t need home computers any more, I can use a Bluetooth keyboard and use my TV as the display for the phone.

Yamaha is simply watching which way the wind blows. Prior to the Montage intro, they sent out a survey to users asking what features they used and my guess is that fewer people than ever reported using the sequencer. Although I briefly used computer sequencing back in 1990 on an Atari ST, I didn’t have a DAW until 2011, before that it was all workstation sequencers synched to tape or digital multitrack recorders.

Workstations had a good run of three decades (or more if you consider the Fairlight and Synclavier) but they were born when computers cost more than your synthesizer and the sequencer programs and MIDI interfaces cost hundreds of dollars...my first sequencer for the Atari cost $250!!! Today we have access to free DAWs (Garageband, Cubase AI, etc.), MIDI interfaces are built into the instruments and computers can be bought for $300.

“It wouldn’t surprise some of us.  :-) “
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/462519/P15/

This was priceless LOL, great.,.  The colors are all there now all we need to do is get a firm commitment fromYamaha :-)

So that you guys know., when I’m not doing music, I’m doing computers (in a really big way).  Many computer-based DAW lovers would kill to have my computer setup.  I’ve got both a loaded 17 inch Macbook Pro and a loaded Mac Pro (the new Cylinder style mac), 42 inch monitor, 10 Terabytes of storage, all dedicated and single purposed to my MOX8/Motif, I’m familiar enough with Cubase to get any job done I want to use it for., but the fact is switching over to the computer just takes me out of whatever musical mood I’m in, whether its composing, improvising, exploring arpeggiators, whatever.  For mastering, scoring the music to video, integrating it with video games the computer system worx,

But when I’m forced to use Cubase during music creation, I’m reminded why I prefer dedicated sequencers. like last night was a good example.  I usually take things to Wav on my TASCAM, and use drop-box,FTP or even CD when I need to share a digital version of my music.  But as you all know Wav files are typically too big to e-mail.  But last night I had a particular request for an .MP3 So after a few curse words, I fired up Cubase, loaded my wav in and got ready to export it to .mp3 and I find out that my Cubase AI5 only had a limited .mp3 encoder license and it had expired 3 years ago, and I was being prompted to visit the “Shop” to spend another $15.99 LOL.  And this was know coincidence on Yamaha’s part. They are straight up in pimp mode here!  Fortunately I was able to improvise and get the wav to .mp3 another way, but it all just reminded me how much bull!@#$ all this computer integration can be.  Licenses, dongles, e-licenses, monthly payments, virus scans, version mismatches, operating system updates, patches, on and on.

I dunno, I’m thinking: give me that new 2019 metallic deep purple Motif-FS (Full Sequencer) with 2 gig of sequencer memory, 256 polyphony, 4 gig sample flash, and a few more jobs that enhance midi-wave integration and I’m good to go LOL.  I would probably add a Montage 6 to my rig just for those very rare situations where the Motif is underpowered as a synthesizer

As nostalgic as it is, lastmonk.

Your thread is the wrong way up for 2017.

Surely, what folks really want is a Motif added to Cubase(or other DAWs).

Okay Cubaseians who want a Motif plug in.  I get that.  And maybe Yamaha’s move in the Montage was to separate out the computer from the music?  To move us all back to the live performance?

The only problem is that for as long as there has been music ppl have been finding ways to record it, preserve it, so that it could be shared and performed by future audiences and musicians.  Cubase and the rest of the computer based DAWs are about to change all that for the worse.  Here is what I see.

1. Eventually, editing Midi, Wav will be the sole province of software on the computer outside of the music instrument (especially keyboards)

2, The computer based DAWS all go to the cloud and become subscription based services.  Initially the price of the service will be tolerable, but over time it will be prohibitive.

3.  Daw vendors will have complete control of editing/or manipulation of recorded music.

4.  It will become so expensive, that we find our selves back were we started when recording music was controlled by a few and could only be afforded by those with big bank.

At the end of the day this will result in less music being made, and less music being played.

But Steinberg and co will have nice profits while it lasts.

But keeping most of the midi/wav editing as part of the music instrument without the dongles, licenses, e-licensors, etc could prevent all of that.  :-)

I can see it now.

sequencing/editing services to start $9.99 per/month or $99 a year.  Or $1.00 for the first 10,000 notes, 50 cent for each additional 10,000 notes.

Then as time goes on, compression, will cost extra, limiting will cost extra, transposition will cost extra, arpeggios, and music phrases considered IP and will cost extra on a per song basis.
different costs for different levels of reverb and chorus added to the music in the editing / post production phase, Its going to happen in music software, because its happening elsewhere in software.

Its not so much that I’m given to nostalgia, Its more that I see a potential digital music dystopia on the horizon