davlippo7 - 28 January 2016 07:09 PM

The Motif flash has already been doubled to 4GB. The EX5 flash was doubled from 8 to 16 and it’s a dinosaur. It would be a design flaw if that wasn’t a possibility but it’s also not user upgradable like the others. Who knows what Yamaha was thinking but if their thinking we’re going to sell expansion packs/sets etc. to make future profits, why would they stop as low as 1.75GB?

We don’t know how large the total address space is, nor what part of it Yamaha might have reserved for future expansion (additional “engines”?), and therefore limited the “user” space.

Until details of the architecture are known, it’s all conjecture.

@papaphoenix:
Thanks for the explanation regarding XF Firewire and Montage USB.
OK, since I have no Firewire on my XF I’m no expert in that topic anyway.

What you write about the Montage sounds almost too good.
Let’s imagine I have 16 MIDI tracks in my DAW.
(Some mono, other stereo - but as I understood the Montage supports 16x stereo)
For the quality we can choose in this example 24 bit 44.1 kHz.

The classical way would be to record every single track in real time
to get a WAV track, e.g. 03:00 minutes.
For 16 tracks that would be maximum 48:00 minutes.
(For XF users who don’t own a Firewire expansion.)

So this means the Montage makes this for all tracks at once in non-real time?
Let’s say it takes 1 minute for this process (just an example):
Does this automatically mean a real audio interface is not needed,
because everything gets sent via USB?
(Imagine the Montage is the only instrument connected to the PC.)

Also, I wonder how the DAW will know what to do with the MIDI.
When doing it manually (the classical way), you select the MIDI track (source), select the WAV track (target) and record.
In the USB case the DAW must know that the 16 MIDI tracks get “converted” to audio.
In Studio One for example there is “Transform” option, which makes audio out of MIDI.
But this is for virtual instruments.
I have no idea if this will work for the Montage too.

“In the USB case the DAW must know that the 16 MIDI tracks get “converted” to audio.
In Studio One for example there is “Transform” option, which makes audio out of MIDI.
But this is for virtual instruments.
I have no idea if this will work for the Montage too.”

I wouldn’t count on that, although I’d love to have that functionality. Some companies have indeed implemented this (ages ago!), Virus TI works this way IIRC. It works as a seamless virtual instrument, the only exception being that the audio is in fact generated outside the PC.

Well, the Motif XF for example works also as a VST due to its editor.

But it’s impossible to know if the transform function will work.
Only if someone here has Studio One, a Motif XF and Fireware we will know if it might work…

Raven80 - 29 January 2016 04:57 AM

imagine I have 16 MIDI tracks in my DAW.
(Some mono, other stereo - but as I understood the Montage supports 16x stereo)

You don’t record audio in place of MIDI tracks - there are separate tracks for audio.

So this means the Montage makes this for all tracks at once in non-real time? ... Does this automatically mean a real audio interface is not needed, because everything gets sent via USB?

It all happens in realtime. You arm your 16 audio tracks for record in your DAW and choose the source input channel for each track (probably requires a single keypress in Cubase AI8 with Yamaha extensions), then you just press Record in your DAW and it plays your 16 MIDI tracks to the Montage and simultaneously records the 16 audio tracks coming back from the Montage, using its built-in USB audio/MIDI interface.

The classical way would be to record every single track in real time to get a WAV track… I wonder how the DAW will know what to do with the MIDI. When doing it manually (the classical way), you select the MIDI track (source), select the WAV track (target) and record.

“The classical way”? Where have you been for the last 20 years?

Software DAWs supported multitrack audio recording and multichannel audio cards since at least 1995, and quite a few manufacturers offered multichannel output options in their synthesizers and samplers as well:

* Alesis ADAT lightpipe - Alesis QuadraSynth, S4, QS, QSR, Fusion; E-mu E4, E4 Ultra; Korg TRITON LE, Z1, KARMA, TRITON RACK, TRITON STUDIO, TRITON EXTREME; Kurzweil K2500/K2600; Akai S5000, S6000, Z4, Z8, MPC 4000;
* Roland R-BUS - Roland XV, MV;
* Tascam T-DIF - Roland XV, MV; Kurzweil K2500/K2600;
* Yamaha mLAN - Yamaha Motif, Motif ES, Motif XS; Korg TRITON-RACK, TRITON STUDIO, TRITON EXTREME;
* FireWire - Yamaha Motif XS, Motif XF.

BTW modern software DAWs have no limit for the number of audio and MIDI tracks, except for intro/free versions - this includes Cakewalk Sonar, Steinberg Cubase, Apple Logic Pro and Ableton Live. So you can even record multiple versions of the same part to separate tracks, using a different patch/voice, a different live take, or a diffrent control/scene event track. Song building is just so much easier with computer software…

DmitryKo - 29 January 2016 06:25 AM

You don’t record audio in place of MIDI tracks - there are separate tracks for audio.

Yes and no.
Option A:
You have a MIDI track and an audio track.
You let the MIDI play and at the same time you record the fresh audio into an Audio track.

Option B:
You have a MIDI track and transform it.
OK, this might be just an automation of
*Create audio track, record the Audio, delete the MIDI track*
(But it looks like 1 operation)

It all happens in realtime. You arm your 16 audio tracks for record and in your DAW and choose the source input channel for each track (probably requires a single keypress in Cubase AI8), then you just press Record in your DAW and it plays your 16 MIDI tracks to the Montage and simultaneously records the 16 audio tracks coming back from the Montage, using its built-in USB audio/MIDI interface.

OK, this makes sense and sounds good.
Because if you have connected it with 1 audio cable only (to an audio interface), you would have to record each track alone.
(This is the case for my XF, which is connected via Digital-Out to my PC.)

“The classical way”? Where have you been for the last 20 years?

I started working with this stuff like 1 year ago.
Therefore I’m not really experienced.

Software DAWs supported multitrack audio recording and multichannel audio cards since at least 1995, and quite a few manufacturers offered multichannel output options in their synthesizers and samplers as well:

* Alesis ADAT lightpipe - Alesis QuadraSynth, S4, QS, QSR, Fusion; E-mu E4, E4 Ultra; Korg TRITON LE, Z1, KARMA, TRITON RACK, TRITON STUDIO, TRITON EXTREME; Kurzweil K2500/K2600; Akai S5000, S6000, Z4, Z8, MPC 4000;
* Roland R-BUS - Roland XV, MV;
* Tascam T-DIF - Roland XV, MV; Kurzweil K2500/K2600;
* Yamaha mLAN - Yamaha Motif, Motif ES; Korg TRITON-RACK, TRITON STUDIO, TRITON EXTREME;
* FireWire - Yamaha Motif XS, Motif XF.

Except for the XF Firewire, this all works with 1 audio cable only?
In my case I only have 1 output and 1 input.
Sure, when using more outputs and more inputs there is no need to record each track in solo.

Edit:
So theoretically I would not have to connect my Montage’s audio outputs to my PC anyway?
Since it sends the audio via USB, it would/could be redundant.
So I can connect the Montage’s outputs just to a Stereo in order to hear what I play.

Because if the audio outputs are connected to a PC as well, the DAW might not “know” if it should record from USB or from the input audio.
Sounds all a bit complicated/strange, but once the Montage has been released, I hope all the questions will be answered quickly.

Hi it’s in real time, you cannot “bounce” midi tracks because the sound generator is the Montage not the computer, that’s the same think for firewire on the XS/XF.
You can bounce midi tracks on your daw with computer sound engine or VSTi.

The usb connexion of the montage will be your “sound card” like the FW can be your sound card with the XS/XF when you have it, in this case you do not need to connect your Montage or XS/XF audio output to the computer.

Midi can be already in your daw or coming from the Montage performance recorder.
Audio for each track will be record on audio tracks, midi in midi tracks.

Raven80 - 29 January 2016 07:47 AM

if the audio outputs are connected to a PC as well, the DAW might not “know” if it should record from USB or from the input audio.

Your DAW will enumerate all the USB/FireWire drivers, as well as PCIe audio cards and motherboard audio, and all of their respective input and output channels.

You will then need to set input/output channels for each audio track - or use templates to setup your tracks all at once, as in Cubase AI extensions for Motif.

Refer to YamahaSynth guide for setting up YSFW driver for VST Audio in Cubase and using Motif XF templates for Cubase.

this might be just an automation of *Create audio track, record the Audio, delete the MIDI track*

Exactly.

“Transform”, “Freeze”, “Bounce to track”, etc. is intended for VST Instruments and VST Effects that support offline rendering (i.e. faster-than-realtime). It cannot work with external hardware synths.

this all works with 1 audio cable only?

Yes - one cable, multiple audio channels.

Thank you for your replies!

I wonder how it will be handled with the A/D input.
In my case I have three devices connected to a small passive mixer,
which is connected to my Motif XF.
Since the Montage has such an input as well, I generally see no problem.
For the recording I can understand that the Montage will not “know”
how many different signals actually come in.

In the DAW I use (Studio One) it is possible that I create a MIDI
track for device 2 with Channel X, and 1 for device 3 with Channel Y.
For the recording I can imagine that this won’t work the same way
as when recording MIDI coming from the Montage.
But at least it should record 1 signal coming from the A/D input.

Let’s say 14 MIDI tracks (Montage) + 1 MIDI track (device 2) at once.
And after that record 1 MIDI track of device 3.

Hey guys,

I’ve seen Yamaha added the Datalist and the Reference manual.
I updated some of the points in the first thread.

My analyzes say no voices are missing.
Some are named a bit different (e.g. without AF+AS),
or split in 2 versions.
E.g. Piccolo on XF; Piccolo1, Piccolo2 on Montage.

For the Arpeggios it’s a bit difficult.
Name logic was changed a bit and also the order.
ApKb is not 1 category anymore but 2: Piano, Keys.
I expected to see Arpeggios named _XF, but there is no _ES, _XS, _XF.
Some are now named _C and _N, but even here I see no logic,
because some Arps which didn’t have _ES or _XS on the XF
are now named _C or _N on the Montage.
What does it mean anyway? New and Classic?

On the support/download site I didn’t see any editor.
I really hope there will be some one.
(As it was/is the case for the XF.)

Best regards

N stays for Notes
C stays for Chords

Arpeggio types with “_N” at the end of the type name (example: HipHop1_N)
These Arpeggios are for using with the Normal Part, and Arpeggios with complex notes can be created
even when triggered by one note (page 15).

Arpeggio types with “_C” at the end of the type name (example: Rock1_C)
These Arpeggios are for using with the Normal Part, and correct Arpeggios can be created corresponding
to the chord you play (page 15).