I’m a am pretty sure this has been discussed here before, but I would like to know how many of you who own a Motif XS, or XF have had volume problems when rehearsing with a band or playing live ???  Like for example when you play your Motif by your self it sounds pretty good, but once the entire band kicks in (drums, guitar and bass) despite what PA or Amp your using, it’s like the Motif drops in volume and you can barely hear it, or you hear it very low in volume vs the other instruments.

Has this happened to any of you ?

I’ve not experienced this.  Are you referring to confirmed decibel drop, or is it your perception that the volume decreases?  Does it happen every time?

richie1027 - 09 February 2016 01:06 AM

I’ve not experienced this.  Are you referring to confirmed decibel drop, or is it your perception that the volume decreases?  Does it happen every time?

I have experienced this from time to time, and I know some people locally who have had the same issue with the Motif when playing live.

I remember reading about this issue here on this forum back in 2007 when the XS came out. I just experienced it last Saturday when rehearsing with my band, I use a Roland KC500 amplifier which is pretty decent in size and power and once we’re all playing, most sounds on the Motif are low in volume. I think it is a frequency problem exclusively of the Motifs, more than just a volume problem. I would say it has to do with the outputs themselves regardless of what internal parameters you tweak on the instrument.

The single best change I made to dramatically improve my live keyboard sound (which prominently includes my XF), was when I replaced my Roland KC500 amp with some GOOD quality, stereo powered-speakers.

Please consider this logically. The XF has an incredible spectrum of samples and VOICES, with tones and dynamics that range from pillowy-soft to absolutely grating and piercing.

To suggest that this full range of sounds contains some sort of universally shared “Motif-exclusive frequency problem” that causes all the VOICES to uniformly get lost in the live mix strains credulity.

I would suggest taking a critical look at the EQ settings of the specific VOICES which dissatisfy you , and also reconsider the equipment being used for sound reinforcement.

I own 2 XS6’s and two S90ES’s and use a Nord C1 with one each on stage.  I use a Mackie vlz mixer and run in stereo to my monitors Mackie 350’s and stereo to front of house. I notice that I have to run the xs6 volume knob on the mixer at 3-4 o’clock compared to 12 o’clock on the other boards (I try to keep each boards onboard volumes in the mid to mid-upper ranges for quick adjustment while playing depending on the patch selected....sorry, the voice selected.  Just that the relative output seems to be perceived on average as slightly lower on the xs’s.

cmayhle - 09 February 2016 04:57 AM

The single best change I made to dramatically improve my live keyboard sound (which prominently includes my XF), was when I replaced my Roland KC500 amp with some GOOD quality, stereo powered-speakers.

Please consider this logically. The XF has an incredible spectrum of samples and VOICES, with tones and dynamics that range from pillowy-soft to absolutely grating and piercing.

To suggest that this full range of sounds contains some sort of universally shared “Motif-exclusive frequency problem” that causes all the VOICES to uniformly get lost in the live mix strains credulity.

I would suggest taking a critical look at the EQ settings of the specific VOICES which dissatisfy you , and also reconsider the equipment being used for sound reinforcement.

What powered speakers did you replaced your amp with ?

Venatt - 09 February 2016 04:14 AM

[...]I use a Roland KC500 amplifier which is pretty decent in size and power and once we’re all playing, most sounds on the Motif are low in volume. I think it is a frequency problem exclusively of the Motifs, more than just a volume problem. I would say it has to do with the outputs themselves regardless of what internal parameters you tweak on the instrument.

The problem you’re experiencing doesn’t originate in the Motif. The Roland KC-500 is notorious for having a poor midrange. In addition, since you’re running mono (you said “I use a Roland KC500"), any stereo sounds you use will suffer from phase cancellation issues.

Once you get a pair of decent powered speakers, you’ll probably notice an immediate improvement, as cmayhle did.

If you still aren’t satisfied, I’ll be glad to discuss use of Master Effects and EQ, which will likely resolve any remaining issues.

it really depends on what you’re doing.  first off, the volume is not changing based on if you’re alone or playing with a band.  and XF doesn’t have some unique frequency response dropout phenomena, that defies basic physics.  So I’d cross those to hypotheses off the list and start examining how to actually solve the real issue you face.

Some XF preset voices are at a lower signal level and therefore will not be as loud as others if your main volume level is set at a constant value.  if you’re playing in Voice mode, you’ll see changes in “volume” based on the voice you select.

you can adjust main output up and down (I don’t like to do that live), you can reprogram the voices as User Voices to adjust the output levels so they are consistent, or you could put the preset voices into a Performance and adjust the volumes in the Performance so the set of songs you play are “preset” to a more consistent volume you want.  I do a combination of the latter two.

It is true that XF signal level is lower than some boards as some boards are notoriously “hotter” at line out.  if you’re only playing an XF alone, it doesnt matter what the signal level of some other board is, you just need to get your output level to what you want.  If you’re playing a multiboard rig, many players add a small mixer inline so you can set each board level to be compatible.

Lastly, i’ll +1 on the recommendation to get a powered PA speaker.  KC 550 can get loud enough for most bands, but it doesn’t sound good imo. it harms the beautiful signal being generated by your lovely XF, if there is any frequency related issues its coming from the KC, not the XF.  you’ll be stunned at how much better you sound through even one (mono) PPA.  PPAs to go look at (there’s alot of threads on this topic over at Keyboard Corner forum):

DXR10 or DXR12, Yamaha’s speakers are very nice!
QSC K10, K12 (I don’t personally like these as much as DXR, but they are very popular.  they sound a tad shrill to me for keys)
ELX EV112P - this is what I play.  I bought it because I got a deal on it $412 new.  Its larger and heavier than DXR10 or K10 but it has lovely low end response and very nice flat response across the spectrum - it sounds nice and full, rich.

I don’t recommend the Stagepas line. There are as many opinions on the “best” PPA as there are people posting them.  ymmv, I recommend you take an mp3 player and cable to your favorite music store and start plugging it in and listen.  Pick songs that have prominent keys similar to what you actually play.

Venatt - 09 February 2016 01:28 PM

...What powered speakers did you replaced your amp with ?

I use a pair of DXR10’s, extremely happy with them.  But as Motidave pointed out, there are other great keyboard powered speakers available.

As he also mentioned: A simple, small-format, economical mixer is very useful.  I run all my keyboards into an MG102c stereo mixer at maximum gain output, and then simply balance the level of each there, as required.  Thus, if the XF sends a reduced level compared to some other keyboards (it does), that becomes inconsequential.  The signal level inequity issue is handled per input at the mixer before being sent to the amp/speakers.

There is no mythical frequency problem that sonically shrouds the sounds of the Motif in an ensemble setting.

motidave - 09 February 2016 02:06 PM

it really depends on what you’re doing.  first off, the volume is not changing based on if you’re alone or playing with a band.  and XF doesn’t have some unique frequency response dropout phenomena, that defies basic physics.  So I’d cross those to hypotheses off the list and start examining how to actually solve the real issue you face.

Some XF preset voices are at a lower signal level and therefore will not be as loud as others if your main volume level is set at a constant value.  if you’re playing in Voice mode, you’ll see changes in “volume” based on the voice you select.

you can adjust main output up and down (I don’t like to do that live), you can reprogram the voices as User Voices to adjust the output levels so they are consistent, or you could put the preset voices into a Performance and adjust the volumes in the Performance so the set of songs you play are “preset” to a more consistent volume you want.  I do a combination of the latter two.

It is true that XF signal level is lower than some boards as some boards are notoriously “hotter” at line out.  if you’re only playing an XF alone, it doesnt matter what the signal level of some other board is, you just need to get your output level to what you want.  If you’re playing a multiboard rig, many players add a small mixer inline so you can set each board level to be compatible.

Lastly, i’ll +1 on the recommendation to get a powered PA speaker.  KC 550 can get loud enough for most bands, but it doesn’t sound good imo. it harms the beautiful signal being generated by your lovely XF, if there is any frequency related issues its coming from the KC, not the XF.  you’ll be stunned at how much better you sound through even one (mono) PPA.  PPAs to go look at (there’s alot of threads on this topic over at Keyboard Corner forum):

DXR10 or DXR12, Yamaha’s speakers are very nice!
QSC K10, K12 (I don’t personally like these as much as DXR, but they are very popular.  they sound a tad shrill to me for keys)
ELX EV112P - this is what I play.  I bought it because I got a deal on it $412 new.  Its larger and heavier than DXR10 or K10 but it has lovely low end response and very nice flat response across the spectrum - it sounds nice and full, rich.

I don’t recommend the Stagepas line. There are as many opinions on the “best” PPA as there are people posting them.  ymmv, I recommend you take an mp3 player and cable to your favorite music store and start plugging it in and listen.  Pick songs that have prominent keys similar to what you actually play.

Do I need an separate amplifier for this speakers like for example the DXR10 ? Or is the amp integrated and I can connect directly ?

The DXR10, and many other PA speakers, have very powerful built-in amplification.

There are still passive (no amplifier) pro-speakers available, of course, but the market is heavily populated with active (amplifier included) PA speakers...many of which work very well with keyboards, because their wide and even frequency response fits nicely with the extremely wide frequency output of modern digital keyboards.

cmayhle - 09 February 2016 04:38 PM

The DXR10, and many other PA speakers, have very powerful built-in amplification.

There are still passive (no amplifier) pro-speakers available, of course, but the market is heavily populated with active (amplifier included) PA speakers...many of which work very well with keyboards, because their wide and even frequency response fits nicely with the extremely wide frequency output of modern digital keyboards.

Correct, passive PA speakers that don’t have built-in amp, and then there are Powered PA speakers.  All the ones we’ve discussed are PPA speakers, amplification is built into the speaker.  Just plug the A/C power cord that comes with it into your 110VAC (or 220VAC), plug your keyboard into the back (or through a mixer as you choose) and you’re good, same as a KC amp.

DXR10, EV, QSC, Alta, there are many popular brands out there.  you can get a rough idea on output by looking at the max SPL rating.  DXR is rated at 131 SPL, I think my EV was 132 but don’t quote me.  KC doesn’t post a rating, or I didn’t see it.  Also look at the frequency response range, this is also important.  if it doesn’t go down to around 60 Hz you may feel a need for a sub/bass speaker which is extra gear, $, etc.  DXR LF is 56 Hz, my EV was 60 Hz.  Then there’s dispersion pattern (in degrees - bidirectional).  you, just in general, probably want broad dispersion for a band-type use.

Start reading specs on different speakers and you’ll see what they claim, but as always - the ears will tell you what you like best and how “good” you want to be vs price.  there’s alot of opinions out there.  alot.

motidave - 09 February 2016 05:30 PM

cmayhle - 09 February 2016 04:38 PM

The DXR10, and many other PA speakers, have very powerful built-in amplification.

There are still passive (no amplifier) pro-speakers available, of course, but the market is heavily populated with active (amplifier included) PA speakers...many of which work very well with keyboards, because their wide and even frequency response fits nicely with the extremely wide frequency output of modern digital keyboards.

Correct, passive PA speakers that don’t have built-in amp, and then there are Powered PA speakers.  All the ones we’ve discussed are PPA speakers, amplification is built into the speaker.  Just plug the A/C power cord that comes with it into your 110VAC (or 220VAC), plug your keyboard into the back (or through a mixer as you choose) and you’re good, same as a KC amp.

DXR10, EV, QSC, Alta, there are many popular brands out there.  you can get a rough idea on output by looking at the max SPL rating.  DXR is rated at 131 SPL, I think my EV was 132 but don’t quote me.  KC doesn’t post a rating, or I didn’t see it.  Also look at the frequency response range, this is also important.  if it doesn’t go down to around 60 Hz you may feel a need for a sub/bass speaker which is extra gear, $, etc.  DXR LF is 56 Hz, my EV was 60 Hz.  Then there’s dispersion pattern (in degrees - bidirectional).  you, just in general, probably want broad dispersion for a band-type use.

Start reading specs on different speakers and you’ll see what they claim, but as always - the ears will tell you what you like best and how “good” you want to be vs price.  there’s alot of opinions out there.  alot.

Thank you very much ALL of you for your opinions and responses. One last question, if I use more than one keyboard, do I need a mixer or does these speakers have several inputs ?

Venatt - 09 February 2016 06:24 PM

...Thank you very much ALL of you for your opinions and responses. One last question, if I use more than one keyboard, do I need a mixer or does these speakers have several inputs ?

While most of the powered PA speakers have multiple inputs to some degree or another, there is generally going to be (1) set of stereo inputs that is preferable or best for this type of application.

I really recommend you get a small mixer, it is well worth it. 

First, it gives you the real-time ability to control levels and balances within convenient reach, without having to fish around blindly behind the speaker.

Second, most matched pairs of powered speakers give you the option of running the Left and Right channel cables to only (1) of the units, and stereo-linking that unit with the other unit using a balanced mic cable...this is very convenient.

Third, if you need both a personal monitor feed and a FOH feed, using a stereo mixer with a monitor-send feature will accommodate that.

Several economical small mixers:

ART (Passive)

Behringer (Powered)

Yamaha (Powered)

cmayhle - 09 February 2016 06:41 PM

Venatt - 09 February 2016 06:24 PM

...Thank you very much ALL of you for your opinions and responses. One last question, if I use more than one keyboard, do I need a mixer or does these speakers have several inputs ?

While most of the powered PA speakers have multiple inputs to some degree or another, there is generally going to be (1) set of stereo inputs that is preferable to this type of application.

I really recommend you get a small mixer, it is well worth it. 

First, it gives you the real-time ability to control levels and balances within convenient reach, without having to fish around blindly behind the speaker.

Second, most matched pairs of powered speakers give you the option of running the Left and Right channel cables to only (1) of the units, and stereo-linking that unit with the other unit using a balanced mic cable...this is very convenient.

Several economical small mixers:

ART (Passive)

Behringer (Powered)

Yamaha (Powered)

I have a Yamaha MG82CX mixer, even though right now it’s broken, I need to fix it. Now another question I have is, what happens if while rehearsing with a band somebody else wants to connect his instrument to the kyboard speakers, let’s say the bass player for example, or just the vocalist microphone, will that affect or damage the speakers ? I ask because I am to picky or selfish with my KC500, I don’t let anybody else connect there.

Venatt - 09 February 2016 07:00 PM

...I have a Yamaha MG82CX mixer, even though right now it’s broken, I need to fix it. Now another question I have is, what happens if while rehearsing with a band somebody else wants to connect his instrument to the kyboard speakers, let’s say the bass player for example, or just the vocalist microphone, will that affect or damage the speakers ? I ask because I am to picky or selfish with my KC500, I don’t let anybody else connect there.

I will speak for my DXR10’s:  They will take anything I want to throw at them.  I use them both for keyboard monitoring, and for full band vocal and instrument monitoring.

Think about it: That is exactly the type of use a powerful PA monitor speaker is built for.

If you want to add a vocalist, simply plug the mic cable into your MG82CX and route it into your speakers, no problem.