philwoodmusic - 22 November 2015 01:57 AM

Michael,

What are you measuring the level of your files against, in terms of loudness?  Just out of interest.

And how are you measuring it?

My problem is that the audio files (MP3, WAV) that I produce play at extremely low volume compared to every other audio file that I have (music, podcasts, etc).

I’ve uploaded before normalization and after normalization images of what my audio looks like. Normalization is the only way I know of to fix that problem.

I understand that you have to play softly, but it’s totally possible to make even softly played music fairly loud, without velocity changes.

How would I do that? That’s exactly what I’m trying to find out. So far, all I know how to do is use Cubase to boost the velocity of my notes, or normalize the audio file. And boosting the velocity doesn’t actually give me that much of an effect on audio output levels.

I keep thinking there must be some setting that, when I export audio from Cubase, would allow me to say how loud I want that audio to be. But I haven’t found it yet.

I see your problem as two problems. 5pin’s suggestion should help your hands, but you are for whatever reasons not getting good levels into your DAW at any velocity.

Exactly.

There’s really only a few places where you can change that, but you don’t mention which mode you are working in on your Motif. (voice, perf, song, pattern etc)

Originally I was working in pattern mode. When I got the pattern chain the way I wanted it, I made a song out of it. Then I saved it in an “all” file and imported the song into Cubase.

Since then (a few months ago), I’ve been working in Cubase exclusively, except when I need to play and record something.

This is a non serious comment, but you’re not comparing the level of your files to something like Metallica’s Death Magnetic album are you?

:-)

In the early 1970s, I bought myself a Fender Rhodes. It turned out I couldn’t use it because the attack time was too slow for how I play unless I hit the keys way too hard. So I sold it to a guy who showed up wearing a wrist brace. I asked him what happened, and he said he hurt his hand playing the piano. Maybe he ended up being Metallica’s keyboard player…

In all seriousness though, we can’t compete with the level of commercially available music which has gone through a top mix engineer and top mastering house. 

I just want to be able to play my audio files without having to turn up the volume on my stereo to 11.

Also, a compressor turns peaks in audio down, not up.  They can also colour the sound somewhat.

I don’t really want to use a compressor if I don’t have to. I’m just grasping at straws at the moment…

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

5pinDIN - 22 November 2015 08:11 AM

philwoodmusic - 22 November 2015 01:57 AM

[...] I see your problem as two problems. 5pin’s suggestion should help your hands, but you are for whatever reasons not getting good levels into your DAW at any velocity. [...]

Perhaps this should be addressed first…
What maximum velocity levels can Michael typically attain? How close to 127 - are we talking 50, 80, 120? The answer can help determine what approach to take.

Maximum of ~76. Average of ~55.

If somewhere near 50, there’s no question that the input velocity needs to be increased.

If around 120, increasing velocity probably isn’t going to help much, and other factors can/should be dealt with.

Isn’t there some sort of gain adjustment for the audio output anywhere in the Cubase/Motif XF system?

Michael Trigoboff - 22 November 2015 03:34 PM

5pinDIN - 21 November 2015 11:59 PM

I believe that the Input Transformer should work as I previously described.

If you can’t find it, perhaps this will help:
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=226&t=76491

If not, and if no Motifator member knows more, then I’d suggest posting on the Steinberg site.

By the way…
Changing the velocity data after it’s been recorded isn’t the best way to do things. You want to hear what you’re recording sounds like, as you record it. The character of a Voice, not just the volume level, changes with velocity. You should have Local Control turned off on the XF, send MIDI data to Cubase, and have that data returned to the XF. That way, if velocity is increased before recording MIDI data, what you’ll hear will be a more accurate representation of the final product.

Otherwise, significantly changing velocity values afterward can result in unexpected changes in the overall sound. In fact, since some Voices have velocity switching, the result can be startlingly different.

Excellent suggestion! I will definitely route things that way from here on out.

I’m delighted to be at a point where I can actually understand what you said and do something like this.

A possible drawback to such routing is that it might introduce more latency than you find acceptable. If so, once the velocity issue is resolved, you could go back to direct monitoring.

Michael Trigoboff - 22 November 2015 04:00 PM

5pinDIN - 22 November 2015 08:11 AM

philwoodmusic - 22 November 2015 01:57 AM

[...] I see your problem as two problems. 5pin’s suggestion should help your hands, but you are for whatever reasons not getting good levels into your DAW at any velocity. [...]

Perhaps this should be addressed first…
What maximum velocity levels can Michael typically attain? How close to 127 - are we talking 50, 80, 120? The answer can help determine what approach to take.

Maximum of ~76. Average of ~55.

If somewhere near 50, there’s no question that the input velocity needs to be increased.

If around 120, increasing velocity probably isn’t going to help much, and other factors can/should be dealt with.

Isn’t there some sort of gain adjustment for the audio output anywhere in the Cubase/Motif XF system?

Quite a few dB can often be gained by getting the velocities higher. In addition, several of the Voices have a lot more “life” to them at higher velocities.

The XF’s “audio output” going to Cubase is actually in the digital domain (it’s “digital audio” - before all the analog audio circuits), so there’s no adjustment from the XF.

For the heck of it, in case this was changed from the default 127…
Press [UTILITY]
Press [F1] (General)
Press [SF1] (Play)
Under Tone Generator, make sure Volume is set to 127
See page 219 of the XF Reference Manual for details.

EDIT: One more possibility, when using an FW16E…
See Audio In/Out Settings on pages 223-224 of the XF Reference Manual.
If the FW ones are at +0dB, try increasing them to +6dB.

Just to make sure that I understand your workflow…
I’ve presumed that you initially record MIDI into Cubase, then render as audio later, once you’re happy with the Song. Is that correct? If so, I still feel that getting the 76 velocity level closer to 127 is a good starting place, and that using the Cubase Input Transformer to appropriately multiply velocity should work. I’m not suggesting it’s the final/only step.

Here’s one more idea, to help determine what might make a difference…
Temporarily set the XF’s Utility mode Velocity Curve to “fixed”, and the value to 127. That should tell you to what degree increased velocities from the XF would matter.

When I said that there are ways of making softly played music loud, I did state that it depends on good recording levels and the quality of the recording itself.

It’s really not worth talking about those until you’ve managed to get good input levels to Cubase in the first place.

So, at this point, you really need to go through everything 5pinDIN has said.

5pinDIN - 22 November 2015 04:37 PM

For the heck of it, in case this was changed from the default 127…
Press [UTILITY]
Press [F1] (General)
Press [SF1] (Play)
Under Tone Generator, make sure Volume is set to 127
See page 219 of the XF Reference Manual for details.

It was set to 51. I had done that in the VST Editor to adjust the volume in my headphones.

EDIT: One more possibility, when using an FW16E…
See Audio In/Out Settings on pages 223-224 of the XF Reference Manual.
If the FW ones are at +0dB, try increasing them to +6dB.

I’m currently only using the L&R;output, and it’s set to +6dB.

Just to make sure that I understand your workflow…
I’ve presumed that you initially record MIDI into Cubase, then render as audio later, once you’re happy with the Song. Is that correct?

Yes.

Following your suggestions, I set the tone generator volume to 127, and set velocity curve to “fixed” and velocity value to 127. Here’s an image of the audio that resulted. Still pretty low volume. :-(

Click thumbnail to see full-size image

Michael Trigoboff - 22 November 2015 06:28 PM

[...] I’m currently only using the L&R;output, and it’s set to +6dB. [...]

According to the Reference Manual pages I previously mentioned, the L+R Gain and Assign L+R Gain settings on the XF affect only the output at the rear panel jacks, and it’s the FW Gain settings that determine the output levels via the IEEE1394 (FW) connector.

I thought that you added an FW16E to your XF, and that’s how it’s interfaced to your computer/Cubase. If so, you might try increasing those FW levels to +6dB. (I apologize in advance if that doesn’t help, although I blame the manual writers.  :-)  )

You might find this helpful:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/midi_velocity_and_audio_record_levels

 

Michael Trigoboff -

Following your suggestions, I set the tone generator volume to 127, and set velocity curve to “fixed” and velocity value to 127. Here’s an image of the audio that resulted. Still pretty low volume. :-(

I see a several dB increase in peak level. Of course, don’t leave the Velocity Curve set to “fixed” - return it to “soft” and store the change. Then work with the Input Transformer in Cubase.

5pinDIN - 22 November 2015 07:56 PM

I thought that you added an FW16E to your XF, and that’s how it’s interfaced to your computer/Cubase. If so, you might try increasing those FW levels to +6dB. (I apologize in advance if that doesn’t help, although I blame the manual writers.  :-)  )

I do have an FW16E now. I raised the FW levels to +6dB, but didn’t get an extremely significant effect.

You might find this helpful:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/midi_velocity_and_audio_record_levels

I had seen that already. Interesting information, but I didn’t find anything that fixed my problem.

I see a several dB increase in peak level. Of course, don’t leave the Velocity Curve set to “fixed” - return it to “soft” and store the change. Then work with the Input Transformer in Cubase.

The problem with the Input Transformer is, as both you and Phil mentioned, there are Voices which will sound very different at the higher velocities.

Back when I was in my amateur rock band in the 1970s, I had a Wurlitzer electric piano plugged into an amp.

Sometimes I would turn the volume on the piano down and hit the keys pretty hard (which I could do back then). Doing that gave me a particular sound—after a while all the metal reeds in the piano would start resonating and as I played I’d be feeding energy into that cloud of resonance. It made for an interestingly spooky “ghost” dancing behind what I was playing.

Other times, I would turn the volume on the piano way up and hit the keys very softly. This produced a very different sound, but courtesy of what I did with the volume knob, it came out at exactly the same loudness.

I can do this kind of thing playing “live” on my XF7. It amazes me that this is apparently not possible when recording digital audio either directly from the XF7 or by using Cubase/FW.

But I appreciate all the attention you and Phil have paid to this thread.

Michael Trigoboff - 23 November 2015 05:03 PM

[...] Back when I was in my amateur rock band in the 1970s, I had a Wurlitzer electric piano plugged into an amp.

Sometimes I would turn the volume on the piano down and hit the keys pretty hard (which I could do back then). Doing that gave me a particular sound—after a while all the metal reeds in the piano would start resonating and as I played I’d be feeding energy into that cloud of resonance. It made for an interestingly spooky “ghost” dancing behind what I was playing.

Other times, I would turn the volume on the piano way up and hit the keys very softly. This produced a very different sound, but courtesy of what I did with the volume knob, it came out at exactly the same loudness.

I can do this kind of thing playing “live” on my XF7. It amazes me that this is apparently not possible when recording digital audio either directly from the XF7 or by using Cubase/FW.

For your purposes, normalization of what was originally recorded might indeed be the best approach, although it might result in somewhat increased noise levels. It also may be worthwhile bringing your situation to the attention of Steinberg at their own forum.

 

Michael Trigoboff -

But I appreciate all the attention you and Phil have paid to this thread.

I think both of us want to see users get as much as they can from their Motifs. I always hope that Motifator members will find value in my posts, even if I don’t always have “the” answer.

5pinDIN - 23 November 2015 06:18 PM

For your purposes, normalization of what was originally recorded might indeed be the best approach, although it might result in somewhat increased noise levels.

Where would this noise level come from? I can see it could happen if I was using an analog device like a microphone. But my current song is all MIDI. Is there some noise that could occur in the exclusively digital realm?

Michael Trigoboff - 23 November 2015 06:25 PM

5pinDIN - 23 November 2015 06:18 PM

For your purposes, normalization of what was originally recorded might indeed be the best approach, although it might result in somewhat increased noise levels.

Where would this noise level come from? I can see it could happen if I was using an analog device like a microphone. But my current song is all MIDI. Is there some noise that could occur in the exclusively digital realm?

Digital has advantages, but it’s not perfect. It has a limited dynamic range, depending on bit depth, and therefore a limited signal-to-noise ratio (S/N). For example, with 16-bit audio the maximum dynamic range is 96 db (16 bits times 6 dB per bit). That translates to a theoretical maximum 96 dB S/N - assuming the peak level attained is 0 dBFS, the “floor” will be -96dBFS.

The term “normalization” typically refers to peak normalization, in which the original peak is increased to something near but (hopefully) under 0 dBFS, and everything else (including the lowest level program material and noise) undergoes the same increase. And then there’s dithering…
http://www.earlevel.com/main/1996/10/20/what-is-dither/

If peak levels approach 0 dBFS without normalization, the result for 16-bit could be a recording with a S/N of about 90 dB. Most people would find that to be relatively “noiseless”. However, if pre-normalization levels are sufficiently low, bringing the peaks up can also bring the noise floor to an audible level. S/N of 50 dB would be noticeable by almost anyone, and even 70 dB S/N can be detected by many.

I’m not saying that normalization should be avoided at all costs, just that it isn’t without consequences.