Played a jam gig last night, went direct into a stereo channel on the house mixer.  I had to crank the level on the channel all the way to get even the most minimal volume in the overall mix. And my MOX volume was also pegged. 

I have the db at +6 in Utilities. Is there some other Master setting I may have set wrong? 

Is there some other issue—cables perhaps? I’m using Planet Wave plastic-coated 1/4 plugs. (I didn’t have time to swap and compare them at the gig.)

Does sending stereo vs L/Mono make a difference in Output.

I should add that when using my personal Mackie or Yamaha mixer, I don’t have this problem, though I certainly have to turn the knobs much higher then other line instruments.

muscarella - 18 June 2015 12:09 PM

Played a jam gig last night, went direct into a stereo channel on the house mixer.  I had to crank the level on the channel all the way to get even the most minimal volume in the overall mix. And my MOX volume was also pegged. 

I have the db at +6 in Utilities. Is there some other Master setting I may have set wrong?

The Volume setting usually defaults to 127, which is maximum. You might want to check that it wasn’t somehow set lower. See page 141 of the MOX Reference Manual.

I presume it’s the L+R Gain setting that you have at +6 dB - if so, that indeed is already at maximum.

Key Velocity can affect output level. Page 142 covers the settings for that.

There are potentially other ways to increase level, depending on mode. Which mode (Voice, etc.) were you using?

 

muscarella -

Is there some other issue—cables perhaps? I’m using Planet Wave plastic-coated 1/4 plugs. (I didn’t have time to swap and compare them at the gig.)

The design of the mixer input stage can determine if cable type will make a difference in level. MOX line outputs are unbalanced type, and TS cables should be used.

 

muscarella -

Does sending stereo vs L/Mono make a difference in Output.

When a stereo sound source is reduce to mono, some phase cancellation typically occurs. That can result in lowered output at certain frequencies. Use of the L/MONO output can do that, but even if L and R are fed to the mixer, the result will be the same if the channels are combined in the mixer.

I am always in Performance or Song/Pattern. I should have tried switching to pure Voice but didn’t have time to search around. I’m reconstructing and thinking that it got worse (but was still pretty bad) when I went into a Song mode in order to use the existing Mixing, channel 16 instrument. So I will look into that Song, but I cranked the volume knob on that channel, so maybe it had some setting less then 127 on that particular instrument/track output. (This goes back to another concern I have about how certain Voice patches are set so low initially that I have to tweak things in the Voice Edit mixing.  Seriously, should ANY voice be programmed for a max volume of 49? Just seems strange. Anyway.....)

That said, I still find the output to be annoyingly low and feel like I’m having to overcompensate in various ways. Does nobody else share this observation?

Hi there

Just to confirm that you’re not alone really. ;-)
There have been other threads about this.

Not a massive problem for me, but my MOXF is most definitely not as loud as my old Novation KS4.

Hope you can work around it!

Cheers

Would it have made a difference if I’d run my MOX signals to my personal mixer, then send THAT signal out to the house mixer channel? Or would I just be complicating an already messy situation?  Anyway, I will run down the suggestions offered above and see if I can get some answers and satisfaction. Thanks.

In terms of VOICE mode, if you explore your various voices, you will see that they are all set at different levels and some are set quite conservatively. 

You can edit the individual levels of voices in VOICE mode by pressing EDIT and then choosing OUTPUT or F2.

Perhaps consider editing each voice’s output first and pushing it up there.

Try that before messing around with mixers.

muscarella - 18 June 2015 11:32 PM

I am always in Performance or Song/Pattern. I should have tried switching to pure Voice but didn’t have time to search around. I’m reconstructing and thinking that it got worse (but was still pretty bad) when I went into a Song mode in order to use the existing Mixing, channel 16 instrument.[...]

That said, I still find the output to be annoyingly low and feel like I’m having to overcompensate in various ways. Does nobody else share this observation?

A mixer can certainly help with low levels, but it isn’t always necessary. The Master EQ can be used to raise levels. See the MOX(F) Reference Manual, [SF2] MEQ on page 143(MOXF) or 144(MOX) and [F3] MEQ on page 61 for details. If the goal is to only change the level without significantly affecting frequency response, set Shape for shelving ("shelv"), set the three ”Q” settings to minimum (0.1), and raise Gains for uniform output. For example, with default frequency settings, boosting LOW MID, MID, and HIGH MID each about 3 dB, and both LOW and HIGH about 5 dB, provides a nice increase in level.

Master EQ settings in Utility mode will affect all of the Voices. MEQ settings in Performance mode will apply to only the specific Performance. MEQ settings can also be made for each Pattern/Song in Mixing mode - see pages 116 and 61. The MEQ settings in Performances, Patterns, and Songs will carry over to Masters they’re assigned to.

Nice one 5pinDIN ! :-)

+7 on all the Master EQ bands on the MoXF and the gain on the input channel in Cubase for this is now on 0db (may have to tweak a little at some stage but...).

Was never a massive issue here but thanks and kudos aplenty nonetheless!

zpink - 20 June 2015 12:05 AM

Nice one 5pinDIN ! :-)

Thanks.

 

zpink -

+7 on all the Master EQ bands on the MoXF and the gain on the input channel in Cubase for this is now on 0db (may have to tweak a little at some stage but...).

Was never a massive issue here but thanks and kudos aplenty nonetheless!

Just a little additional information…

“Q” is inversely related to bandwidth (BW). By setting Q to 0.1, the BW is almost 7 octaves. That eliminates the “roller coaster” frequency response which can occur with high Q settings. It also causes the effect of each frequency band to mostly overlap the others.

In my example, I chose +3 dB for the three MID settings, and +5 dB for the LOW and HIGH shelves. While I haven’t measured the actual gain on my Motif XF, for mid frequencies the overlap would be expected to cause the boost to be closer to 9 dB. The XF displays the EQ curve, and I found that with the three MIDs set for +3 dB, setting Low and High for +5 dB gave a nearly flat response curve.

Of course, if there’s a need for EQing due to room acoustics, speaker characteristics, etc, the settings to provide an overall level boost might not be as important.

By the way, setting all the Master EQ bands to +7 dB when the Q is 0.1 would result in about +21 dB in mid frequencies (with a slight roll-off from that level at the bottom and top). That might be excessive for some Voices, possibly resulting in clipping.

I may have been a bit unclear in my last post.

I did notice clipping but that disappeared when I removed the gain from the input channel in Cubase.

Since all my projects and also templates are already set up with the lower level of the MOXF in mind, I didn’t actually save my EQ settings.

I merely posted to confirm that your fix worked fine when testing here.

Quite an obvious and easy fix really, but you’re the first one I’ve seen mentioning it! :-)

zpink - 20 June 2015 08:17 PM

I may have been a bit unclear in my last post.

I did notice clipping but that disappeared when I removed the gain from the input channel in Cubase.

Since all my projects and also templates are already set up with the lower level of the MOXF in mind, I didn’t actually save my EQ settings.

I merely posted to confirm that your fix worked fine when testing here.

I appreciate that. My only concern was that someone might try +7 dB gain settings with Q = 0.1 and not realize how much greater than 7 dB the increase would be.

 

zpink -

Quite an obvious and easy fix really, but you’re the first one I’ve seen mentioning it! :-)

I like easy fixes.  :-)

It’s within ‘easy fixes’ that genius can most often be found! :-)

Hello,

I’m playing in a Rock cover band and for this purpose I had to tweak each of the internal voices of the MOX (and of the MOXF) for maximal loudness, before I could use it.
If I had known, that the MEQ influences all internal voices, this tip would have saved me much work (I know: RTFM!!!).

Another question in this context: are the Level LEDs of the MOX a reliable measure to control internal clipping of the MOX outputs? In other words, can I be sure, that no internal clipping occurs, if the red LED is not flashing.

Greetings from Germany (please excuse my English)
Rainer

GrandMS - 21 June 2015 06:17 AM

Another question in this context: are the Level LEDs of the MOX a reliable measure to control internal clipping of the MOX outputs? In other words, can I be sure, that no internal clipping occurs, if the red LED is not flashing.

Like most forms of metering, it’s a guide and not especially precise.  It should give you enough of a clue that things are getting hot though.

Your ears are your best tool. So, if it sounds good and clear from distortion, then it is good.

philwoodmusic - 21 June 2015 07:53 AM

Your ears are your best tool. So, if it sounds good and clear from distortion, then it is good.

Thank you,
but I’m 60 years old and I’m not sure, if I can trust my ears at all. :-)

If you’re not sure, try and keep your meter out of the red, then. 

60 times around the sun doesn’t necessarily mean that your hearing can’t be trusted, unless you’ve spent your life in a death metal band who cane their amplification to the point of melting it.

We can all eventually lose the ability to hear some of the higher frequencies, but healthy ears of your age should still be able to tell you a thing or two about the quality of sound.

Clipping is seldom subtle, either.