I have discovered a problem in the way that the ES responds to SYSEX commands that are addressed to other keyboards.

I have a Motif ES8 that has worked well for years in all respects.  Recently, I have put it into a keyboard setup with a Motif XS8.  I send out SYSEX commands to both keyboards and the SYSEX commands execute successfully and do what they are supposed to do.  But, the SYSEX commands that are addressed to the XS have unintended effects on the ES.  This should not be happening because the 7F 03 Model ID parameters in the command should address it to the XS only, and the ES should not respond to it in any way.  To complicate matters, changing the Device Numbers on either the ES or inside the SYSEX commands that I am issuing does nothing to cure the problem.  Also, get this – if I set to the Device Number on the ES to “OFF”, it still responds erroneously to SYSEX commands that are addressed to the XS.  I have summarized what I have found so far in the attached table, that explains it better.  The normal purpose of the SYSEX command in the table is to set the Master Note Shift on the XS to “0”, but this is just one example.  Any SYSEX command that changes a System parameter on the XS would cause some erroneous response on the ES.

I first ran across this when I noticed that the Master Volume on my ES was repeatedly getting set to 119 for no reason.  I traced the cause down to the note shift command F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7 that is intended to reset the Master Note Shift on the XS to “0”, but it also sets the Master Volume on my ES to 119.  This is just a small example – this behavior has the potential to erroneously change any of the MIDI System Parameters noted on page 69 of the manual, or the Master EQ and Effects settings on page 70.  And the other keyboard addressed in the setup doesn’t necessarily have to be an XS – sending system change type SYSEX commands to any other Yamaha device should cause the same issue on the ES.

I have tried just about everything to get rid of this problem.  Since changing the Device Number didn’t help at all, I tried the following:

- Factory reset (and left it that way).
- Re-flashed the OS with three different versions (started with 1.08, then downgraded to 1.03, then 1.06, then back to 1.08).
- Verified that it happens when using both the DIN MIDI input, and also the USB MIDI input.
- Tried issuing the SYSEX command from different machines.  Happens whether I issue it from a PC windows sequencer, MIDIOX SYSEX command window, or from the XS keyboard internal sequencer with no PC connected at all.  It still happens just the same no matter where it is coming from.  By the way, MIDIOX doesn’t show any unusual commands going to, or coming from the ES in the outside world.  This thing is internal to the ES.

Note that if I set the Device Number on the ES to “OFF”, and then send a SYSEX command that is legitimately addressed to the ES, the ES gives a proper response of “Device number is off,” just like it should.  The only thing I haven’t tried is checking another ES to see whether it happens on any ES keyboard, or just mine.  Anybody with an ES feel free to try the experiment:  Send F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7 to your ES and see whether the Master Volume gets set to exactly 119 instead of something else.  If this is a design flaw, I don’t know whether Yamaha could still release another OS update to fix this, since this keyboard is fairly old.  It sure would be nice.

Motif ES SYSEX Glitch Table.pdf  (File Size: 62KB - Downloads: 550)

Just wanted to post a note that it has been nearly a year since I posted this, and I still haven’t found any real solution.  If this happens, a possible work around is to simply send an extra SYSEX command to correct whatever undesired effect it had on the ES.  I have traveled somewhat during the past year and tried to find a used ES keyboard in one of the music stores to try this on, to see whether it is repeatable, but I never ran across any, unfortunately.

It’s not apparent from your posts how the gear is interconnected. What happens if connect your computer to only the ES MIDI-In, and use MIDI-OX to send a SysEx message meant for the XS, such as
F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7 which you mentioned?

At your suggestion, I went back and re-verified again under different hookups.  I sent the aforementioned SysEx command and verified behavior under the following setups:

- Computer connected to ES8 via USB.  Nothing else is connected to the ES8.  Sent this command from the computer using the MIDIOX SysEx window.
- Computer connected to ES8 via USB.  Nothing else is connected to the ES8.  Sent this command from a typical PC Windows sequencer with MIDIOX not running at all.
- No computer connected to anything – totally out of the picture.  XS8 connected to ES8 via a DIN MIDI cable.  Sent this command from the XS8 internal sequencer.
- No computer connected to anything – totally out of the picture.  In fact, ES8 is not connected to the XS8 or anything whatsoever (besides power).  Sent this command from the ES8 internal sequencer.

In all cases the command sets the Master Volume on my ES to 119 when I previously had it set to 127 (which should not happen).

FYI, my usual setup is a laptop connected to the XS8 (only) via a single USB cable.  I then connect the XS8 to the ES8 with two DIN MIDI cables (one for each direction).  I communicate from the laptop to the ES8 by addressing Port 3 on the XS8 (the DIN MIDI connections).

BTW, MIDIOX is pretty old, but it still seems to work reliably under Windows 8.  I haven’t tried 8.1.

That’s all rather strange - especially, that the second ID byte (XS=03 vs ES=00) is apparently being ignored.

Here are the two messages, the one sent and the one in effect received…
XS Note Shift, 0 semitones:
F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7

ES Master Volume, 119 level (77 hex):
F0 43 10 7F 00 00 00 00 77 F7

Even if we disregard the ID byte issue, both the LSB of the address (XS=01 vs ES=00) and the data value (XS=40 vs ES=77) also don’t match.

I don’t have an ES, so I can’t check for what you’re experiencing. I do have an XS (2nd ID byte 03) and XF (2nd ID byte 12), and they behave correctly - neither recognizes or seems to incorrectly respond to SysEx messages meant for the other.

It would be nice if another member who owns an ES would try sending
F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7
to theirs and see if the Master Volume setting changes to 119 if initially set to something else.

By the way, have you run the built-in diagnostic tests?

Otherwise, it would seem that contacting Yamaha and bringing this to their attention would be appropriate.

I hadn’t thought about the diagnostic tests – been a long time since I ran those.  I’ll certainly try those, but I won’t have access to the ES8 until Sunday.  I’ll try it then.

I have not figured out what sort of logic might be causing this behavior.  The PDF file I attached to the first post shows that there is a pattern and predictability to it, but not any logical reason.  The Address HIGH parameter behaves like the Address MID parameter normally would, and the Address MID parameter behaves like the Address LOW parameter normally would.  It is possible that if other people have been experiencing unexplainable changes to their ES settings, this could explain it in some situations.  That is, if it is universal and not just my keyboard.

Do you have a suggestion for how to contact Yamaha about this?  Initially, I was kind of hoping they would pick up on it from my original post.

The values shown in your PDF that are outside of 00~7F for Address Low and Data are illegal, so I’m not sure what’s going on there. MIDI messages are comprised of Status and Data bytes. MIDI bytes are 8-bit - in binary the maximum is 11111111, or FF in hex, but only Status bytes can have the highest bit as 1(one). Data bytes are restricted to the lowest seven bits - the highest bit is always 0(zero).

The highest legal value for MIDI Data is 7F, 01111111 in binary. The next number, 10000000 binary, 80 hex, is Status meaning Channel 1 Note Off. Here’s a chart showing the Status bytes:
http://www.midimountain.com/midi/midi_status.htm

Motifator isn’t a Yamaha website. I’d suggest checking the Owner’s Manual for contact information - usually one of the last pages lists it for each country.
For the US…
Yamaha Corporation of America
6600 Orangethorpe Ave.
Buena Park, CA 90620
1-714-522-9011

If you talk to Customer Support, they can probably determine if what you’re experiencing can be duplicated on their gear, and give further advice.

Thanks for pointing that out - I had forgotten to observe those restrictions for the data bytes.  So looking at my chart, I tested outside the envelope for some things such as the second byte of the Model ID.  The behavior will only be triggered if this is set to between 00 and 7F, because this is the only valid range for that type of data to begin with.

I ran some of the boot-up diagnostics tests, and these didn’t reveal any problems.  Here are some of those that I ran:

- 10 MIDI:  OK (have to connect the DIN MIDI OUT to MIDI IN to get this one to work.  Makes sense).
- 17 Card:  OK (I do use the SmartMedia card).
- 25 ROM:  Shows an assortment of numbers.  All of these check OK.
- 26 RAM:  Shows an assortment of numbers.  All of these check OK.

I don’t have any DIMM installed anymore, and it probably wouldn’t have been related anyway, since it is only used for sample memory.  I ran a few of the other tests for things such as the display and a few of the encoders.  I didn’t have time to run all of them.  But I don’t believe any of them are relevant besides the ones listed above.  All of them I was able to run seemed to give good results.

I’ll contact Yamaha when I get a chance and see what they have to say.  Like you said, they might very well have an ES at their disposal to try it on.

I contacted Yamaha and pointed them to this thread here.  They tried this SysEx string we have been discussing on their own ES that they happened to have.  Their ES did not react the same way that mine did - the master volume (in the UTILITY menu) was not affected on their ES.  I could not think of any special conditions that they may have missed in trying their version of the experiment.  It should either produce the effect or it won’t.  Since that would indicate that the problem is in my equipment itself and is not a global problem, I asked them if there was anything further I could do to try to do to rectify it.  I had already tried a factory reset as well as re-flashing the OS.  Yamaha responded that my ES may be in need of professional diagnosis/repair.  I’m not sure that I’ll go that far – I’ll probably just work around it :-(.

I would have been surprised if the problem you’re experiencing turned out to be widespread, but I think it was worth following up on it with Yamaha.

If I had to guess, someplace a few bits are improperly stuck low or high - not that the specific cause matters, since it’s likely the cost of a hardware repair for the problem would be prohibitive under any circumstance.

Anyway, thanks for the follow-up post, and sorry there wasn’t a good resolution.

I hope it’s not too late to give help:

I tested to send the ‘XS’ sysex ‘F0 43 10 7F 03 00 00 01 40 F7’ to my ES8, with MidiOx.
Same result: Changed Utility>General>TG>Volume to 119
No matter which device number i choose on the Motif ES.
You’re not alone…

I have mine since end 2003 with firmware 1.08
Never had this kind of problem, because i don’t have an XS.

You can try routing your sysex message only to Xs’midi port.

from France.