Hi,

I am doing sequencing with internal sequencer of MOXF. Whenever i insert a Program Change to a track, for example :
- Measure 1 - 8 : Piano sound (track 1)
- Measure 9 - 16 : Guitar sound (track 1)
The result is : when i playback the song, there is about 100/200 ms delay between measure 8 to 9. This thing happens to any track, any instrument in any bank.

I am also doing sequencing using SONAR, and with SONAR i use 2 keyboards :
- MOXF for tracks 1 - 9
- Roland FA-06 for tracks 10 - 16 (i like the SN Drum and orchestra expansion sound)
Whenever i playback the recorded song or start recording a new data, there is always 100/200 ms delay with track 1 - 9 (MOXF). But there is no delay at all with track 10 - 16 (Roland FA).

So, i am very sure the problem is not with the SONAR, but with the MOXF itself.

I have already tried to swap the USB cable of Roland FA and MOXF, but the delay is still with MOXF only. I have also updated the MOXF Firmware to the latest version (1.10), but the problem still persists.

Could anybody help me with this please?

paulus1971 - 19 April 2015 09:08 PM

I am doing sequencing with internal sequencer of MOXF. Whenever i insert a Program Change to a track, for example :
- Measure 1 - 8 : Piano sound (track 1)
- Measure 9 - 16 : Guitar sound (track 1)
The result is : when i playback the song, there is about 100/200 ms delay between measure 8 to 9. This thing happens to any track, any instrument in any bank. [...]

In your example, are you inserting the PC event at the top of measure 9, with a Note-On event immediately following it? If so, you can expect a momentary “glitch” - PC takes a short while to occur. That can usually be avoided by moving the PC event a few clock ticks earlier, so that it occurs at the end of the previous measure by a sufficient amount. You might have to experiment a bit to determine exactly how far to move the PC event.

Hi 5pinDIN, thank you for your suggestion.

Yup, i inserted the program change on the first beat, at the top of bar 9.

But unfortunately, i can’t move the PC earlier on the 8th bar. Because, actually i’m creating this midi file for Yamaha PSR/Tyros style. In the style file, for example :
- Main A : bar 1 - 8
- Main B : bar 9 - 16
For PSR/Tyros styles, as long as “Main B” is not triggered, then bar 1 - 8 have to be played in a loop. In this case, the PC command should not be inserted anywhere between bar 1 - 8.

Do you know if there is any other way to eliminate this glitch?

Cause when i try to use Roland FA, there is no such ‘glitch’ even though i inserted the PC in the very top of bar 9.

The time a MIDI event takes to be processed is somewhat dependent on the hardware it’s running on.

Is the PC event just PC, or does it include Bank Select? Exactly what message(s) are you inserting? Please give an example.

Hi 5pinDIN, thank you for your reply....

I will give you 3 examples, in SONAR, Mix Master software, and MOXF internal sequencer

FIRST
This is an example of the ones i am doing in SONAR (the first row is the header in even list of sonar, the second row is the data) :
TRK-----HMSF---------MBT------CH--Kind---Data
10------00:00:11:01--6:01:00--10--Patch--Normal-8096-DrAnalog TB Kit

In the example above (in SONAR), i used the INSERT - Bank/Patch Change in SONAR to change drum kit from PowerStandarKit 1 to Analog. The 8096 is the number given automatically by SONAR, and it is actually the number where the Analog drum kit is placed in INS file.

SECOND
Below is another example of the Tyros 4 Style (6-8 Orchestral) i’ve edited using Mix Master software, and then i run this style using vArranger2 software using MOXF as the sound module, which causes delay. But whenever i run the same style using Roland FA as the sound module, there is no delay at all.
024:1:0000 15/Phr1 - Trumpet-Mega Bank Select Msb=8
024:1:0004 6/Phr1 - Trumpet-Mega Bank Select Lsb=0
024:1:0004 15/Phr1 - Trumpet-Mega Bank Select Lsb=0
024:1:0008 6/Phr1 - Trumpet-Mega Program Change=64
024:1:0008 15/Phr1 - Trumpet-Mega Program Change=64

The thing is, even though if i use Roland FA i can run almost all Tyros 4 styles smoothly, but its sound quality is inferior to MOXF. So, i really don’t want to use Roland FA as my sound module to run Tyros 4 styles.

THIRD
And this is another example i’ve done in MOXF sequencer, not using any external device, only with MOXF:
Measure = 009:1:000
PC
Bank = 000 - 000
PC NO = 000 [Concert]
What i did with MOXF :
1. EDIT (in Song mode)
2. INSERT (F5)
3. I moved the cursor to select “ProgramChange” in EVENTYPE section
4. Then I selected the measure, bank and PC no
5. Then i pressed SET (F6)
And actually, there is not only a “glitch” in the result, but also a real delay. So, the whole 16 tracks are delayed by around 100/200 ms. 

Could you help me with this please?

Thank you

What happens if you create a Section in Pattern Mode (just like in your Song, beginning at measure 9), including the Program Change, and loop play it? I don’t experience a problem when I do that, but I have an XF, not a MOXF, and there are differences between the two.

When you use the MOXF alone (without external device), make sure that it isn’t connected via MIDI, either 5-pin DIN or USB. MIDI feedback loops/echo can cause some strange operation.

Hi 5pinDIN,

I have just tried what you suggested, disconnected the USB cable from my laptop, and then create a simple tracks in PATTERN mode, then inserted a PC command in 1 track. When i played the Pattern, the whole tracks is delayed by 100/200 ms at the point where i inserted a PC. I even tried to inserted the PC not in very top measure, but i shifted it tens of ticks after the top measure, the delay is still there.

With my Roland FA, this thing doesn’t happen. I think, if this thing is the flaw that MOXF has, Yamaha really made a fatal flaw in this case.

How about with your motif XF, 5pinDIN, does the PC also delays the tracks?

Could anyone help me with this please?

Thank you

See your other thread.

paulus1971 - 22 April 2015 07:38 AM

Hi 5pinDIN,

I have just tried what you suggested, disconnected the USB cable from my laptop, and then create a simple tracks in PATTERN mode, then inserted a PC command in 1 track. When i played the Pattern, the whole tracks is delayed by 100/200 ms at the point where i inserted a PC. I even tried to inserted the PC not in very top measure, but i shifted it tens of ticks after the top measure, the delay is still there.[...]

OK, I just wanted to determine for certain that what you’re referring to was happening with the MOXF isolated. The situation is discussed in this thread:
http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/348740/all/VArranger_Now_Plays_3_Keyboard

If vArranger2 is limited to 16 tracks, then that’s unfortunate. A Program Change isn’t necessary as far as the MOXF is concerned, of course, since it can use more than the current 9 track assignments. Using another track on the MOXF eliminates the problem, but apparently vArranger2 limits that possibility.

If vArranger2 really won’t allow for more than 16 tracks, then the author might want to consider updating the program. It’s hardly uncommon now for users to have access to multiple MIDI sound sources, so 16 tracks is kind of restrictive. DAWs typically can address several pieces of gear on many more than 16 tracks.

Hi 5pinDIN,

I have another answer from meatballfulton that all motif series behave like my MOXF.....sigh…

About vArranger2, actually, because all Arranger Keyboards, even the most expensive one like Yamaha Tyros 5 only uses 8 track accompaniment, so, to be able to play styles from Korg, Roland, and Yamaha lines, vArranger2 follows this format.

I am not related in anyway to Dan, the vArranger2 programmer, i am only one of his customers actually.

The reason why i bought vArranger2 is, because, i had a dream, to have an Arranger “keyboard” with Motif sound’s quality. I know Motif XF sound’s quality is better than my MOXF, but at least, for ordinary audience, they sound the same.

To make accompaniment with more than 8 instruments, we have to create, the maximum, is 16 tracks, then we have to edit the midi file to determine how the 16 tracks will work together in 8 track accompaniment (can’t be done in Sonar/Cubase). We can use software like CASM editor, to determine, how the 16 tracks will work together in an 8 track keyboard arranger. And, most of the time, this will not create any problem, such delay, etc.

If, for some reason, we need to create more than 16 instrument accompaniment, then we have to use PC. And, in this case, the MOXF’s flaw honestly really disappoints me. Actually, i really like MOXF sound. It’s sound is almost as good as Motif XF sound, but with much...much...lower price. That’s why i bought my MOXF.

Anyway, thank you for your kind help. I really appreciate it.

paulus1971 - 22 April 2015 10:45 AM

Hi 5pinDIN,

I have another answer from meatballfulton that all motif series behave like my MOXF.....sigh…

Yamaha and Roland take a different approach, it’s a design decision. A slight delay isn’t a problem unless you simultaneously use another MIDI sound source that doesn’t have a delay, and then the timing offset is noticeable. I suggest that you read at least the first page of the Synth Zone thread I previously linked to, which can provide somewhat of a perspective on this issue.

 

paulus1971 -

About vArranger2, actually, because all Arranger Keyboards, even the most expensive one like Yamaha Tyros 5 only uses 8 track accompaniment, so, to be able to play styles from Korg, Roland, and Yamaha lines, vArranger2 follows this format.

I am not related in anyway to Dan, the vArranger2 programmer, i am only one of his customers actually.

The reason why i bought vArranger2 is, because, i had a dream, to have an Arranger “keyboard” with Motif sound’s quality. I know Motif XF sound’s quality is better than my MOXF, but at least, for ordinary audience, they sound the same.

To make accompaniment with more than 8 instruments, we have to create, the maximum, is 16 tracks, then we have to edit the midi file to determine how the 16 tracks will work together in 8 track accompaniment (can’t be done in Sonar/Cubase). We can use software like CASM editor, to determine, how the 16 tracks will work together in an 8 track keyboard arranger. And, most of the time, this will not create any problem, such delay, etc.

I’ll admit to not knowing much about arranger keyboards, so thanks for that information.

 

paulus1971 -

If, for some reason, we need to create more than 16 instrument accompaniment, then we have to use PC. And, in this case, the MOXF’s flaw honestly really disappoints me.

The way Roland does things can sometimes produce a glitch, but apparently they decided that it was better than cutting things off for a short period. For your particular purposes, the Roland approach seems to be more suitable.

 

paulus1971 -

Actually, i really like MOXF sound. It’s sound is almost as good as Motif XF sound, but with much...much...lower price. That’s why i bought my MOXF.

Anyway, thank you for your kind help. I really appreciate it.

Yes, the MOXF can sound quite good. Over a year ago I did a comparison with the XS and XF, which can be found here:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/470507/
Although meatballfulton is basically correct about the behavior of the Motif models, a situation with PC messages and the ability of the MOXF to handle them versus the XS and XF came up in that thread - you might want to read it.