I have only used 6 of the 64 allowable user songs on my MOXF8 but when I try to save a new pattern to a song, I keep getting the “Sequencer Memory Full” error message.  I went back and cleared out several old patterns that I had stored and then tried to save the new pattern to a song again but still get the same error msg.  I don’t want to delete my remaining recordings but I have never yet tried to save anything off the board onto a flash drive and I’m not sure I know how to. 

When you save the file as an “All” file to a flash drive, how are you then able to extract individual songs from it to put back on the keyboard if needed? 

I can’t figure out why the memory is filled up already.  I would have thought there would be enough memory to certainly record more than 6 songs since they provide 64 user song banks and 64 user pattern banks.

Jeff R 50 - 15 October 2014 04:21 PM

...When you save the file as an “All” file to a flash drive, how are you then able to extract individual songs from it to put back on the keyboard if needed?

Yes!  LOAD a (single) SONG from an ALL or ALLSONG file , per page 156 of the MOXF Reference Manual.

Jeff R 50 - 15 October 2014 04:21 PM

...I can’t figure out why the memory is filled up already.  I would have thought there would be enough memory to certainly record more than 6 songs since they provide 64 user song banks and 64 user pattern banks.

If you

1) Think of the sequencer as your “work environment” and not a “storage environment”, and…

2) Set aside your trepidation about SAVING your SONGS externally (either as an ALL or ALLSONG file) and re-LOADING them as needed for work or for performing, you will be less frustrated with a full sequencer at just the wrong time.

Jeff R 50 - 15 October 2014 04:21 PM

[...]I can’t figure out why the memory is filled up already.  I would have thought there would be enough memory to certainly record more than 6 songs since they provide 64 user song banks and 64 user pattern banks.

The sequencer memory is limited to a certain number of MIDI events, not the number of Songs/Patterns, or even the total number of notes.

If your Songs are long enough, the number that can be recorded without exceeding the sequencer memory limit might be just a few. In addition, you might be recording a lot of control data (Pitch Bend, Aftertouch, Sustain. etc.), which can eat up sequencer memory in a hurry. Have you checked the Event List to see exactly what it is that you’re recording?

Thanks cmayhle and 5pindin, yeah I guess it’s time for me to dive into this board a little more deeply.  I have just been doing what I need to do to get my songs recorded and have been afraid to venture too far out there into the world of file management and beyond.

5pin, I do indeed use a lot of sustain (I’m a piano player so I use the piano voice with sustain in all my songs).  So I guess that is what eats up the memory.  Could a flash module be added to increase the internal storage memory by any chance?

Thanks

Jeff R 50 - 15 October 2014 05:59 PM

5pin, I do indeed use a lot of sustain (I’m a piano player so I use the piano voice with sustain in all my songs).  So I guess that is what eats up the memory.  Could a flash module be added to increase the internal storage memory by any chance?

Thanks

First, I fully agree with cmayhle and you that becoming comfortable with saving files should be done.

It may indeed be a lot of sustain data that’s the culprit, but it’s good to be sure. See [F1]CHANGE on page 84 of the MOXF Reference Manual, and Correcting wrong notes on page 45 of the Owner’s Manual. Using [F2]VIEW FLT(View Filter), also on page 84 of the Reference Manual, you can limit what you see to only certain data, such as Control Change. That makes it a lot easier to find specific types of events. Sustain is CC #64. If there’s excessive sustain, you could try thinning the data. See 06:Thin Out on page 93 of the Reference Manual. Be sure to have backed up your material before you try that or any other operation that changes the data.

Unfortunately, a flash module won’t help - there’s no way to increase the sequencer’s data capacity.

It’s not difficult to get that message, unfortunately. Although the sequencer capacity looks generous on paper the reality is that you’ll hit the maximum pretty quickly with full arrangements and certainly with control data like sustain, pitch wheel, modulation etc involved.

If you want to construct fully arranged pieces, using all control data that you have in mind, best to plan on having no more than one or two such Songs present and loaded at any one time. Storage on USB is quick and simple (I’d also advise storing contents of your USB to computer - some wise person once said that if you don’t store your data in at least two separate places you don’t care about it).

Thank you 5pin and MrMotif, I appreciate the info and for the clarification that it is normal to use up sequencer memory like this. 5pin, yes I do see a lot of sustain data in the midi files.  Too bad they didn’t just add a couple of terabytes of memory to this board so we would rarely run out of space.  In any case, you guys have encouraged me to delve deeper into this.  Thanks as always for your replies.

I’d like to drop in here at this point, as I also have to report the same problem related to the described “Sequence memory full” error message which might pop up on the MOXF display under certain circumstances. Following the previous explanations and offered solutions here in this thread, MOXF users might get the impression that in this case their actions are the only source of errors. After all it was mentioned that it’s only a matter of how often you save your patterns/songs to USB in order to free up some space, thus avoiding that sequencer capacity runs out of memory. Don’t get me wrong, saving is never a bad idea, but from my point of view the real problem lies much deeper.

Let me demonstrate that it’s not only a conceptual failure caused by users, filling the memory up by too excessive playing (e.g. usage of SUSTAIN or any other MIDI controllers/events). It rather seems to be a technical discrepancy which should be clarified by the Yamaha design team and improved in the next F/W version. The issue can easily be reproduced by simply exchanging data between a PC (using latest “Melas Tools / Total Librarian for MOXF” V2.3.1) and the MOXF (latest F/W V1.10.2). Therefore I kindly ask all of you “MOXF + Melas Tools” owners out there to confirm the strange behavior which will occur during the following procedure. In order to keep it simple, I’d like to explain the problem by an example which everyone should be able to set up quickly:

Let’s assume the MOXF is in its “virgin” state (meaning a factory set has been performed and all songs/patterns are the “default” ones), and the MOXF is properly connected to the PC via USB. After starting the “Total Librarian” application and creating a fresh “Total Library” instance, all songs and patterns from the MOXF may be transferred from the MOXF to this initialized library on the PC. This can be achieved by selecting “Receive All...” from the “Edit” drop-down menu within the “Total Librarian” application, and then by checking only the “SONG” and “PATTERN” boxes. After confirming the setting by pressing “OK” and waiting for a while, all pattern and song data should be transferred correctly to the “Total Librarian” application. So far, so good.

Now, without changing or manipulating any of these data - neither on the MOXF, nor on the PC application - let’s just transfer the same data back to their original locations in the MOXF memory from where we just fetched them up few minutes ago. The restore procedure is quite similar to achieve. After using the “Edit” drop-down menu again - but this time selecting “Transmit All...” (the boxes “SONG” and “PATTERN” should still be checked) - and pressing “OK”, the “Total Librarian” application begins to transfer the original pattern and song data back to the MOXF. Great.

But wait - exactly here the problem seems to start. No matter how often you try this simple procedure of restoring the same data back to the MOXF, at a certain point during the transfer the “Sequence memory full” error message will appear on the MOXF display. But howcome the MOXF sequence memory can ever get any data overflow while being entirely re-written with exactly the same sequencer content which we just saved from the MOXF before? Considering the fact that the same storage locations are used for each single pattern and song, shouldn’t the contained data be of the same kind, format and size? Why should these data suddenly be larger and shouldn’t fit anymore into the same MOXF memory space and its storage locations from which they have been taken few minutes ago? Very strange…

From my point of view this might be a memory allocation problem within the MOXF. As it seems, the MOXF is also not able to interpret the received system exclusive message / bulk data correctly and may be writing additional data to some sequence storage areas even if it should not do so, thus requiring more space than under normal circumstances. Maybe this also applies when manipulating/copying/saving patterns and songs manually, thus filling up the memory with stuff that shouldn’t be there.

Whatever is the actual reason for that behavior, this should be checked in any case by the Yamaha design team. From the F/W history I can see that F/W V1.10.2 was already supposed to fix a similar problem, but maybe there are still some left-overs that survived the previous release tests and which are still causing problems here.

Can anybody else confirm the same behavior?

I have an XF and Melas, but not available...so I can’t experiment.

However, as you describe your actions, you are SAVING (receiving) SONGS and PATTERNS out of the MOXF, and then LOADING (transmitting) those SONGS and PATTERNS back into the MOXF.

Let me suggest that it is possible there (2) separate things happening:

The SONGS and PATTERNS should overwrite the USER BANK locations as you would expect.  However, you may very well be re-LOADING the sequencer data (without intention) each time you overwrite the SONGS and PATTERNS also...as opposed to overwriting the sequencer data, it may simply LOAD it in duplicate...again and again each time you LOAD (transmit), until the sequencer memory is full.

The USER memory location for the SONG and PATTERN data is completely separate from the sequencer memory.

It wouldn’t surprise me that the LOAD protocol may be such that LOADING a SONG to the machine also LOADS it to the sequencer, in essence preparing it to be utilized.  If it simple adds it to the sequencer memory without overwriting anything that may already be there...well, that would end up filling the memory capacity at some point.  It also might be something in the way Melas transmits the data back into the keyboard.  Have you seen the same behavior doing these as SAVE and LOAD operations with a USB thumb drive instead of Melas?

Now, let me say I really don’t know if this is happening or not, I simply raise it as a possibility.

However, you may very well be re-LOADING the sequencer data (without intention) each time you overwrite the SONGS and PATTERNS also...as opposed to overwriting the sequencer data, it may simply LOAD it in duplicate...again and again each time you LOAD (transmit), until the sequencer memory is full.

Just for clarification, I always did a new factory set before each new trial of restoring the data back to the MOXF. That’s why I can exclude that the sequencer memory just gets filled up because of “multiple” restore trials done in sequence. After a fresh factory set you can even take the original “MOXF preset” song/pattern data which already come built.in with the “Melas Tools for MOXF” application. Transmitting those data back to the MOXF will have the same effect and lead to the same error message as sending back a personal backup as explained before.

The USER memory location for the SONG and PATTERN data is completely separate from the sequencer memory. It wouldn’t surprise me that the LOAD protocol may be such that LOADING a SONG to the machine also LOADS it to the sequencer, in essence preparing it to be utilized. If it simple adds it to the sequencer memory without overwriting anything that may already be there...well, that would end up filling the memory capacity at some point.

Where is the physical location of the “sequencer memory” you are talking about? Is this the internal buffer in the MOXF? I’d suggest this is used for temporary storage while receiving the data and therefore occupied just before storing the data to the final location. I’d also expect that this buffer is wiped before the next pattern/song is received and stored to its proper location. If this memory space is something else, how can I manually “erase” it first?

It also might be something in the way Melas transmits the data back into the keyboard. Have you seen the same behavior doing these as SAVE and LOAD operations with a USB thumb drive instead of Melas?

No, saving/restoring from USB works correctly. After all this works differently and will not use any MIDI SysEx messages which might be the problem. When working with Melas, as far as I can see by observing the MOXF display, each of the 64 songs and 64 patterns is transmitted one by one by the application to the MOXF. The MOXF is receiving each pattern/song separately and then stores it back one by one to its original storage location. In fact it seems to be the same procedure as sending each pattern/song one after another manually to the unit, but only as a scripted process. I also tried to send back the pattern/song banks back one after another, pausing between them. No matter in which sequence you store the banks back, the transmission of the second bank will not be completed, because the sequence memory will run out of memory. If this is really a Melas problem only, why the transmission of all other banks (voices/performances/masters) works correctly with Melas in both directions?

If user pattern/song locations are not the actual place for storing sequencer data, it would be interesting to disclose the secrets of this “sequencer memory” and how it can be wiped manually before each new bank transfer.

B.Minor - 23 October 2014 01:41 AM

[...]But wait - exactly here the problem seems to start. No matter how often you try this simple procedure of restoring the same data back to the MOXF, at a certain point during the transfer the “Sequence memory full” error message will appear on the MOXF display. But howcome the MOXF sequence memory can ever get any data overflow while being entirely re-written with exactly the same sequencer content which we just saved from the MOXF before? Considering the fact that the same storage locations are used for each single pattern and song, shouldn’t the contained data be of the same kind, format and size? Why should these data suddenly be larger and shouldn’t fit anymore into the same MOXF memory space and its storage locations from which they have been taken few minutes ago? Very strange...[...]

I don’t have a MOXF or the Melas software, but I do have some ideas…

Immediately after doing a factory reset, press the MOXF [QUICK SETUP] button, and then [F6](INFO). Does that display the sequencer memory Used/Total usage/capacity? If so, make note of it. (I can’t find anything in the MOXF manuals about this, but that’s the INFO my XF displays.)

Save the sequencer data to Total Librarian, then send it back to the MOXF. When the “Sequence memory full” message is displayed, make note of the MOXF sequencer memory usage again.

Let us know what the usage is before and after sending the data back via Melas.

As to how the MOXF internal memory is configured, see page 22 of the Reference Manual. Yes, there is an Edit Buffer - if or how that might be related to what you’re experiencing, I don’t know. I might have other ideas once you let us know what the MOXF reports about sequencer memory usage.

EDIT: You might find this thread interesting/helpful:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/471530/

Hopefully not OT, but can you use the optional Flash Board to record and play sequences?  I’m thinking you could get a LOT of MIDI data space that way.

Botanicus - 23 October 2014 12:13 PM

[...]can you use the optional Flash Board to record and play sequences?[...]

No. The flash module can only store Samples/Waveforms/WAV/AIFF. See page 22 of the MOXF Reference Manual.

Thanks cmayhle and 5pinDIN for your information. Summarizing what I’ve learned so far from you is that there are memory locations in the MOXF for storing user song/pattern data, and on the other hand there is this separated “sequencer memory” area which is holding additional information in order to complete all necessary sequencer data.

I followed your advice and entered the “Quick Setup” + “Info” screen, but there isn’t any “sequencer memory” status displayed here on the MOXF - no memory information at all, just the current Audio and MIDI settings. So there was no difference on this MOXF screen before and after transmitting/receiving any sequencer data again.

I also studied the internal memory chart on page 22 in the Reference Manual. Unfortunately there is no clear indication which of the sequencer data are actually stored in which memory area. I only can see that pattern/song data (including their mixes) are stored apart from the Sequencer Setup + Mixing templates.

Concerning the link you provided, to be honest I’m more confused now than I was before. Let me summarize some information collected from Bad Mister’s statements there:

When you press [STORE] while in either of the sequencer modes, read carefully what it says it is Storing… The entire Sequencer is stored… MIDI track events, MOXF Mixing Setups, including Mix Voices.

Okay, as already expected, we have to consider three aspects whenever storing/restoring any sequences: Track events, Mixing Setups and Mix Voices. Let’s keep on investigating on Mix Voices first:

Notes are not the only thing stored to a sequence… Controller data, and as is the case with the MOXF sequencer, Mix Voices are stored locally as a Part of SONG / PATTERN data.

That implies that Mixing Voices are stored along with the track events inside the song/pattern user memory. That’s what is also reflected in the memory chart. But few posts later:

Mixing Voices are stored in the Sequencer folders, each Mixing Voices uses some amount of memory… But does use sequencer memory in the MOXF.

Are Mixing Voices for the MOXF now stored to song/pattern user memory locations (first statement) or are they occupying this so-called sequencer memory (second statement) - or even both of them?

A similar question applies to the Mix Templates:

The 32 Mix Templates are saved and backed up as apart of the MOXF SYSTEM settings.

Yes, that’s also reflected in the memory chart. Few lines later in the same post:

They only use Sequencer memory if you then STORE them to the current Song/Pattern location.

Are Mix Templates actually now part of the MOXF System Settings (first statement) AND part of the sequencer memory PLUS song/pattern locations (second statement) - meaning all at the same time? Then, few lines later:

The 32 MIX TEMPLATES are separate from the Sequencer and do not impact Sequencer memory.

So, what? Sorry, I don’t get it. And how does the song/pattern/sequencer memory finally interact with the buffer? How can I delete this buffer in order not to get any error messages during Melas transfers of pattern/song data?

The MO-series and the Motif-series have differences in this (Seq) area. It can be tricky to get rid of the hidden buffers. This is not usually a problem, in fact it is a welcome feature when you discover it. This is not a big deal, but if some one is really worried we can explain further.

Yes, I think this might be really necessary. I’m even not sure if all S/W developers like Melas are aware of the fact that sequencer storage works differently on the MOXF than it does on the Motif series.

What must be done in fact to store/restore ALL pattern/song data correcltly (without facing this “sequence memory full” errors) while using Melas Tools for MOXF?

Thanks in advance.

I would additionally suggest you pose the question(s) to John Melas directly.  I have found him to be quite responsive to inquiries, in my experience.

B.Minor - 23 October 2014 03:31 PM

Thanks cmayhle and 5pinDIN for your information. Summarizing what I’ve learned so far from you is that there are memory locations in the MOXF for storing user song/pattern data, and on the other hand there is this separated “sequencer memory” area which is holding additional information in order to complete all necessary sequencer data.

There are differences between the XF and MOXF architecture, but as far as I know Song/Pattern (sequence) data is stored in “sequencer memory” in both models. The XF has a total of 1024 kB of sequencer memory, while the MOXF has 896 kB.

Did you follow the link within the thread I linked to?
If not, see http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/469168/  That should help you with clearing the sequencer memory and might provide more insight.

 

B.Minor -

I followed your advice and entered the “Quick Setup” + “Info” screen, but there isn’t any “sequencer memory” status displayed here on the MOXF - no memory information at all, just the current Audio and MIDI settings. So there was no difference on this MOXF screen before and after transmitting/receiving any sequencer data again.

Well, I wasn’t sure where the sequencer memory usage is given in the MOXF, but I found it in the Reference Manual. Press [UTILITY], [F2](SEQ), [SF6](MEMORY). That should display the remaining free sequencer memory. I think knowing that before and after using Total Librarian might provide a clue to what’s happening. Let us know.