I hope someone on here has some advice… I am using Pattern Mixing to be able to play fairly complex layered/split sounds in various combinations. What I am having an issue with is when I need to use the pedal(s) for multiple voices at once. Here is a simpler example of one such issue: I have strings and piano. I need the sustain pedal for the piano, sostenuto pedal for the lower notes I can’t hold down, but I also need a pedal to trigger CC 67 on the strings. Correct me if I’m wrong, but CC67 will allow the notes to be sustained without piling on additional duplicated voices on each note every time I hit it again. I need this because when I rearticulate notes on the piano with the strings layered, the strings get so loud that it sounds terrible. So the solution was, I imagined to allow the sustain pedal to send cc64 to piano and at the same time send cc67 to the strings. I only have two feet so I need one controller that can send different info to different voices.

However I read on here that the sustain pedal can only send cc64 and that’s it. What are my choices? Has nobody ever encountered this issue? Pedaling piano and strings together and making it not sound awful?

And btw, where am I supposed to change the CC number for the control set on a given voice? I go to Edit -> Control Set and I change the destination and there is no list of CC numbers…

Sustenuto is cc066 (not cc067)
A pedal can only send one message at a time.
A pedal plugged into the sustain jack sends cc064, that is a fixed function.
The FS Jack is assignable. Set FS = cc066

This will work as the middle pedal on an acoustic. It will latch the dampers of notes being held when it is pressed… Thus sustaining all notes currently down. All subsequent notes are played without sustain.

I will search for a thread on this and provide a link when I locate it. Basically though, a piano behaves like a percussion instrument and orchestral string sounds do not… So it is counter-intuitive to sustain strings sounds with a pedal. They are designed (programmed) to sustain by physically holding down the keys. In this respect they are like an organ. They sound until you let go. They are “bowed” strings… You maintain sound by continuously bowing… In a sample the envelope continues as long as you hold a key. Key down = bow in motion.

Piano on the other hand fades out… The sustain pedal is not literal on a piano. The sound still disappears in spite of you holding the pedal down. Because piano is a percussion instrument.

You could create a special string sound for what you need to play… By adjusting the AEG (amplitude envelope generator) of the strings to behave as you require. It can be done and you can assign the control over the strings so you “perform” their envelopes.

Trying to make an instrument respond to sustain pedal is not automatic. Very few instruments other than pianos, e pianos, etc have sustain pedals. So expectations of how it should work are not really relevant. The pedal will latch the sound at a specific point in the envelope… If the level at that point is any value other than 0, the sound will continue (sustain). All percussion instrument’s envelopes the DECAY 2 LEVEL stage will be 0.

I remember In 2001 I purchased a PSR740 and I clearly remember that it has a layered sound including Piano and strings. That sound was very interesting. By pressing and holding the keys (no pedal engaged) Both the piano and the strings started to sound while the piano gradually faded away the strings continued to sound until you release the key BUT if I pushed the sustain pedal and hit the keys and then release the keys the string sound just sounded like a piano envelope I mean the strings gradually fade out too.

I really loved that sound and I tried several times to program a sound like that On XF but I couldn’t.

That sound was very useful because I could play fast Piano songs together with strings sound while I use sustain pedal and do all that without the problem of strings sound piling up and maski9ng the piano.

Yes, because so many Piano players seek to play synthesizer sounds on a Yamaha home keyboards (like the PSR740) the engineers “force” the string envelopes to behave like pianos (rather than trying to explain to everyone why the strings don’t act right with a sustain pedal).. Well there is no right way for them to behave because strings in the real world don’t have sustain pedals!!!

There is no programming at the level necessary to create that behavior on the home keyboards...but on a synth like the Motif-and MOX-series this programming is possible.

The below discussion about envelopes should help explain how they work. ......................

Hello, what I want to achieve is this:

I take the TUBA Voice (GM:D11) and I want it to sound only for
(say) half a second, like a real life player would do,
and finally store the new Voice somewhere in USR1.

You should be able to store these “Offset” parameters if you direct the VOICE to a USER bank location.

The ATTACK, DECAY, SUSTAIN, and RELEASE parameters are designed for real time control. These simply apply an OFFSET (either they ADD or SUBTRACT values) to each Elements settings). When synthesizer had but one Envelope Generator you simply controlled it with a set of ADSR knobs or sliders. The Motif XS/XF have 8 oscillators each (thankfully) with its own AEG, individually set, but can be controlled all together with the OFFSET knobs you find on the left front panel.

When you OFFSET the ATTACK, DECAY, SUSTAIN or RELEASE settings - you can press [F3] EG/EQ from the main VOICE

The OFFSET parameter values are found from the MAIN SCREEN by pressing [F3] EG/EQ. The AEG and FEG Offsets are shown.

You can store your offsets or you can edit the actual Amplitude Envelope Generator. The Tuba is a great sound to learn about how the actual Element’s AEG works because it is a single Element Voice.
Press [EDIT]
Press number button [1] to select ELEMENT 1 edit parameters
Press [F4] AMPLITUDE
Press [SF2] AEG
Here you can see the Motif XS/XF Amplitude (loudness) Envelope (shape) Generator.
By setting the DECAY 2 LEVEL to 0, you can change the behavior of this VOICE from one that holds when you hold a key to one that dies out like a percussion instrument.

You can see how the Envelope is described by a group of LEVEL settings and the TIME it takes to travel to those LEVEL settings.
The graphic animates to help you understand what you are hearing. As you lower DECAY 2 LEVEL notice how the graphic changes and notice how it changes the behavior of what you hear.

This is the actual STORED setting. The DECAY and SUSTAIN parameter KNOBs are simply OFFSETS mostly to be used during performance - you can imagine if you have a Voice with 8 AEGs how cumbersome it would be to try to simply change the ATTACK in real time - without having those OFFSET knobs available as a global control. But you should be able to STORE those OFFSETS to a USER VOICE location.

I should mention - if you attempt to use this USER VOICE in a SONG or PATTERN, you will need to use the “Parameter with Voice” function to copy the OFFSETs to your MIXING PART.

Hope that helps.

So you mean I can program a string voice that behave like this:

without sustain pedal when I keep the keys pressed, the sounds last for ever and when I release the keys the sound stops.

With sustain pedal ON if I keep the keys pressed the sound last for ever But when I release the keys the sound sustains like a piano.

without sustain pedal when I keep the keys pressed, the sounds last for ever and when I release the keys the sound stops.

Most Strings sounds do this - you don’t have to do any programming to get this behavior

With sustain pedal ON if I keep the keys pressed the sound last for ever But when I release the keys the sound sustains like a piano.

Not sure that is written correctly - but if you mean the sounds “dies out like a piano” - then yes, that’s what I said.

I can think of several ways to proceed:

Place your two VOICES in a PERFORMANCE (Piano + Strings):
You can have the String PART ignore the sustain pedal entirely - so in programming a PERFORMANCE you can simply turn the SUSTAIN function off for the keys. This will give you control over the strings by the duration you hold down keys. With the sustain pedal down lifting your fingers will cause the strings to stop, and the piano sound to die out as per the sustain setting.
Press [EDIT]
Select the String PART
Press [F6] RECEIVE SWITCH
Clear the box for SUSTAIN.

Program a special STRING VOICE with Element behavior for each:
For more detailing you could program a VOICE where one string Element is set to use XPANDED ARTICULATION CONTROL = AF ALL OFF and another string Element is set so XPANDED ARTICULATION CONTROL = AF 1 ON.

Because the AF buttons can be activated and deactivated with the momentary FC4/5 pedal plugged into the FS (FOOT SWITCH) jack. FS = 086

The ELEMENT responding to AF 1 ON can be programmed with an envelope that is very much like a piano AEG so that its behavior mimics your piano. Playing two instruments will mean working the two pedals, (no more complex than learning to work both sustenuto and sustain on a complex classical piece). Soon you will be able to control the piano and strings just as you desire.
I used the String VOICE: ENS MIX (because it is a full string orchestra, sampled in stereo, and is a single Element) - duplicate the Element in Element slot 2, by using the COPY function.
Program the ELEMENT 1 to “AF ALL OFF” - means it will only sound when the AF lights are off.
Program the ELEMENT 2 to “AF 1 ON” - means when you want the piano behavior simply activate this Element first.

A third method would be to keep the Envelope parameters of the strings available for real time manipulation via the controller of your choice. Remember the AEG parameters are assignable to any of the physical controllers in the VOICE’s CONTROL SET.

Those are three methods that come to mind - just off the top of my head.

For More information on Amplitude Envelope Generator manipulation

I have a question, related to this: I want my string and pad sounds to release when sustain pedal is released and NOT sustain again for that same note when pedal is quickly depressed again.  In other words, if I play a note with the pedal on, I want that note to die out after pedal is let go and if pedal is quickly pressed again, I don’t want that note to continue to sustain, which is what happens on my Motif ES.  I can’t play an effective piano/pad Performance patch without this as the pads/strings start to mush together.  I’ve only encountered this on the ES.  My Roland and Korg keyboards do not have this issue.  I know I have come across this solution before but I am killing myself trying to find it again.

tomtilkens - 29 August 2014 12:52 PM

I have a question, related to this: I want my string and pad sounds to release when sustain pedal is released and NOT sustain again for that same note when pedal is quickly depressed again.  In other words, if I play a note with the pedal on, I want that note to die out after pedal is let go and if pedal is quickly pressed again, I don’t want that note to continue to sustain, which is what happens on my Motif ES.  I can’t play an effective piano/pad Performance patch without this as the pads/strings start to mush together.  I’ve only encountered this on the ES.  My Roland and Korg keyboards do not have this issue.  I know I have come across this solution before but I am killing myself trying to find it again.

You need to do this in PERFORMANCE mode.

Create a performance with piano assigned to one part and strings assigned to the second
part. Go to “Rcv Sw” in COMMON edit page and uncheck the box next to “sustain” for the
string part. STORE the newly created performance.

Now sustain pedal for the strings will be disabled and the string notes won’t mush together.

By the way - did you realize there is a separate Motif ES section of this forum, Motif ES questions are best posted there.

Thank you but that’s not it.  I don’t want to eliminate the “sustain” pedal.  For my purpose, let me call it a “hold” pedal.  With the pedal pressed, I want the pads and strings to hold as long as they would if key’s were held down (which typically for this kind of patch would be indefinite) but obviously I want them to release when the pedal is released.  But I want them to STAY released.  To be more clear, say I play a G chord with the pedal pressed.  When I release it, I want all those notes to release and not hold again if I press the pedal before they decay.  Just like all other sounds.  It seems with the Motif, strings and pads are held with the pedal and the pedal is released and quickly pressed again, the same notes will be held again, albeit at a lesser volume depending on their decay time.  Try it and see.  Play a string sound with pedal depressed.  Release keys.  Then release pedal and quickly press pedal again.  Those notes will still be held.  So if I’m playing a piano pad, you can see how this will get cacophonous. 
I will post this in the other forum too.

tomtilkens - 05 September 2014 09:09 AM

Thank you but that’s not it.  I don’t want to eliminate the “sustain” pedal.  For my purpose, let me call it a “hold” pedal.  With the pedal pressed, I want the pads and strings to hold as long as they would if key’s were held down (which typically for this kind of patch would be indefinite) but obviously I want them to release when the pedal is released.  But I want them to STAY released.  To be more clear, say I play a G chord with the pedal pressed.  When I release it, I want all those notes to release and not hold again if I press the pedal before they decay.  Just like all other sounds.  It seems with the Motif, strings and pads are held with the pedal and the pedal is released and quickly pressed again, the same notes will be held again, albeit at a lesser volume depending on their decay time.  Try it and see.  Play a string sound with pedal depressed.  Release keys.  Then release pedal and quickly press pedal again.  Those notes will still be held.  So if I’m playing a piano pad, you can see how this will get cacophonous. 
I will post this in the other forum too.

Dude, c’mon. This isn’t going to happen.

You can either extend the release of the Amplifier Envelope (AEG) for the string voices, either by editing the string voices themselves or by going to part edit/EG in Performance edit and extending their release there. But even if you do that, you’re still going to be “interrupting” the envelope of the strings…they won’t “release” indefinitely.

I think you need to re-think your playing technique, my man. And besides, who needs this kind of behavior anyway? I haven’t needed to do this in 45 years of playing keyboards. If I want string parts to sustain while I’m playing a piano part, I program the strings in a sequence and play that back while playing along with it.

At any rate, even if by some miracle you’ve gotten this to happen with “other” manufacturers products, trust me, it ain’t gonna happen on the XF.