Ok...received my XF7 the other day and be forewarned, I see a lot of questions in my future (upgrade from an XS7).

I knew that Assign 1 and 2 would now be controlled/preset individually, but I am perplexed to find that I can’t retain control of them as a Common parameter.  That is, I’ve got some edited sounds where I count on the Common control of those knobs in real time as I perfrom.  Whether it’s just one or multiple parts simultaneously that I had programmed to be affected, I had the full view of each Control Function when my patch came up.  With this ‘improved’ control, the Control Function does not show the Assign 1 and 2 parameters and those two knobs have no affect.  I see no option to remedy, other than singularly pulling up a part for editing functionality.

I’m thinking I’m missing something because I can’t believe that that functionality would’ve been removed as a part of the improvement - the Assign knobs are two of the most powerful realtime performance tools at one’s disposal on the keyboard, given all they do.  Help appreciated...thanks in advance.

obrother - 25 August 2014 07:25 PM

[...]I knew that Assign 1 and 2 would now be controlled/preset individually, but I am perplexed to find that I can’t retain control of them as a Common parameter.  That is, I’ve got some edited sounds where I count on the Common control of those knobs in real time as I perfrom.

It’s true that with the XF, AS1 and AS2 values are set separately for each Part of a Performance or Mixing. I consider that to be an improvement over the XS. If you want the Parts to all behave the same way in response to AS1 and/or AS2, then the values should be set the same for each Part.

 

obrother -

Whether it’s just one or multiple parts simultaneously that I had programmed to be affected, I had the full view of each Control Function when my patch came up.  With this ‘improved’ control, the Control Function does not show the Assign 1 and 2 parameters and those two knobs have no affect.  I see no option to remedy, other than singularly pulling up a part for editing functionality.

When you select a Performance, the display defaults to Common, and AS1 and AS2 won’t be displayed because they aren’t a Common Parameter on the XF. If you want to see them, press [PERFORMANCE CONTROL] and then a numbered button 1 through 4 (PART SELECT). If the AS1 and AS2 knobs aren’t doing what you expect, verify that the RcvSwitch (Receive Switch) is on for the Part(s) - page 116 of the XF Reference Manual.

 

obrother -

I’m thinking I’m missing something because I can’t believe that that functionality would’ve been removed as a part of the improvement - the Assign knobs are two of the most powerful realtime performance tools at one’s disposal on the keyboard, given all they do.  Help appreciated...thanks in advance.

I hope that helped. If not, could you post an “All” file with a specific example of the loss of functionality you’re experiencing?

Thank for the response 5Din but I have to confess I’m still perplexed and I’m hoping that I’m wrong about this. 

Yes, I can go to the Performance(s) in question and then hit the requisite Part button then access a singular AS1 or 2 to edit in realtime.  But, if you don’t mind, this is problematic on a couple different levels....specifically for the live-performing user. 

On it’s own merits, the new feature of being able to pre-set a value to either AS1 or AS2 for any or all parts and then be able to edit from there in realtime is a positive, I suppose.  But this new feature seemingly excludes a much more valuable previously existing functionality, and, if I’m being honest, throws a wrench to the otherwise proper Yamaha claim that the XS is 100% compatible with the XF.

To wit:  My XS has one prized and oft used Performance where the AS2, Common as it was, increased Effect in one Part while at the same time diminished the volume in another.  Live performance, one AS knob affecting two parts simultaneously for a desired result - perfect. 

Ex2:  I have another prized Performance (modern dance/electronic w/drums) that I use live where during a bridge section AS1 and AS2 are programmed/routed to do two separate things for a particular Part (sort of a flash tremolo synth in/out effect on one).  But at the same time, I also use the Cutoff to diminish the drums/bass (to get a squeezed/minimized sound before bringing it all back up again).  And the diminishing of the Cutoff (Common!) knob also affected the remaining Parts.....absolutely glorious variety and interplay as the 3 knobs were adjusted.  And if don’t want a Part included in that AS1/2...I just un-check it, it made perfect sense.

All that functionality is seemingly gone, with no workaround. 

So the second and equally bad part is: When AS1/2 were controlled as Common, that screen could be saved to the Performances home pages.  The benefit is that not only could I operate AS1/2 as Common, but I didn’t have to go through any additional pages..it was right there on the Performance home page, as it should be....essential for live performance.

Currently, while not having Common AS1/2 is bad enough, one can not even use those knobs to maneuver a single Part on the ‘home page’ of a Performance....because it’s not there any longer.  One has to, as you alluded to, hit a Part button then go from there.  Were it possible to save ‘that’ screen to the home page of the Performance, it would at least make the singular Part edit more sensible from a live performance standpoint.  But it still deprives live performance users of a very powerful tool that was at their disposal (please Din5...please tell me I’m wrong!)

To me, the greater point of the AS1/2 buttons is not to save Part settings....it’s to give the user realtime control for live performance for whatever that setting/routing is.  I mean, where else does one go on the keyboard to control these available AS1/2 parameters (without using up modwheel, etc)?  Those knobs are ‘gold’ to live performers - look at all they do, but it appears to me that they’ve been sort of neutered.  Simply, they no longer function in any Common way (1 knob adjusting 2 or more Parts), nor can 2 or more parts be controlled separately—from the same page (as before, on the home page). Having AS1/2 save individual settings as a starting point is swell (I’m not sure I ever required that, actually), but the whole point of saving parameters ‘there’....is so you can get to them and change them, and change them easily, ‘live’. 

If I happen to be correct in regard to no viable workaround for Common AS1/2 edit and a necessity to bring up a second page in live performance to edit even one Part on those knobs, I’d like to make a suggestion:

I don’t know much about software/firmware and the like (in fact, nothing), but if a firmware fix could remedy either of these, I think it should be looked into by Yamaha lickity-split.  We know that the Display can show all the parameters for a single Part, so I don’t know if a firmware update can make use of what it is already there.  And then the next question is can a ‘Common on/off AS1/2’ selection be added to Utility or whatnot.

I understand the upgrades to the XF, I’ve had the XS for about 7 years and don’t have a single original Performance...I see/hear and appreciate all that’s been added (in fact, if you’re interested I can post a brief but informative Apple to Apples analysis of how the new converters have affected the XS/XF...don’t worry..it’s more positive than this last post).  Please don’t construe any of this as contentious 5Pin, I definitely appreciate your help and likely will have lots of other questions forthcoming.  For now, however, I’m hoping that you can either tell me that I missed something, or suggest a glimmer of hope that there can be a future remedy if I didn’t.  Thank you!

obrother - 26 August 2014 08:03 AM

To me, the greater point of the AS1/2 buttons is not to save Part settings....it’s to give the user realtime control for live performance for whatever that setting/routing is.  I mean, where else does one go on the keyboard to control these available AS1/2 parameters (without using up modwheel, etc)?  Those knobs are ‘gold’ to live performers - look at all they do, but it appears to me that they’ve been sort of neutered.  Simply, they no longer function in any Common way (1 knob adjusting 2 or more Parts), nor can 2 or more parts be controlled separately—from the same page (as before, on the home page).

I see your point(s), and I can appreciate that the “improvement” in the XF could be a step backwards in certain regards. It seems likely that Yamaha could change this in an OS update, and I can only encourage you to try to get them to do so. I’d suggest contacting Yamaha Support and raising the issue.

 

obrother -

I understand the upgrades to the XF, I’ve had the XS for about 7 years and don’t have a single original Performance...I see/hear and appreciate all that’s been added (in fact, if you’re interested I can post a brief but informative Apple to Apples analysis of how the new converters have affected the XS/XF...don’t worry..it’s more positive than this last post).  Please don’t construe any of this as contentious 5Pin, I definitely appreciate your help and likely will have lots of other questions forthcoming.  For now, however, I’m hoping that you can either tell me that I missed something, or suggest a glimmer of hope that there can be a future remedy if I didn’t.  Thank you!

I (and others, presumably) would be interested in your analysis of the effect of the change in converters.

You’ve raised legitimate concerns. I don’t work for Yamaha, and while I own several of their products, I don’t think the company is incapable of an occasional misstep. This forum is (hopefully!) meant to serve as a means of discussing Motif-related issues, and I don’t consider anything that’s on-topic to be “contentious”.

5Pin,

Thank you so much for that reply.  Aside from a lot of personal Performance editing experience, I often find myself left behind as far as understanding how to properly use other capabilities of the keyboard (mix mode, sampling, software, what have you).  So it really meant a lot that my post was well received and that you gave credence to the observation.

Definitely glad to hear that you think that there could be an OS update or whatnot for a possible remedy, and thrilled that you think it’s worth pursuing re Yamaha.

To that end, if you have any suggestions on how to make contact...I’ll take them.  I’ve been off the board for a long time but I know that US Yamaha chimes in on occasion.  If you or others who are closer to Yamaha proper (Dave Polich?) can help facilitate me getting their attention on this, it would be a great first step.  Otherwise I’ll try to find out how to best make contact myself. 

Thanks again for everything...I will post my finding on XS vs XF in another topic, thanks for the encouragement on that.

obrother - 27 August 2014 09:13 AM

...Definitely glad to hear that you think that there could be an OS update or whatnot for a possible remedy, and thrilled that you think it’s worth pursuing re Yamaha.

To that end, if you have any suggestions on how to make contact...I’ll take them.  I’ve been off the board for a long time but I know that US Yamaha chimes in on occasion.  If you or others who are closer to Yamaha proper (Dave Polich?) can help facilitate me getting their attention on this, it would be a great first step.  Otherwise I’ll try to find out how to best make contact myself....

At this point, I think your best bet to get Yamaha’s ear on future OS updates...and future synth development in general...would be Here.

I have gotten very excellent phone support from Yamaha more than once. Top shelf.
In addition to cmayhle’s great idea, you might think about phoning Yamaha.

Update:

First, I should note that after I started the thread I came up with yet another, perhaps more important, issue as it related to the changeover from Common AS1/2 control to Individual Part control.

It is such: On the XS, any edited AS1 or AS2 values stored in Performance mode will default to zero (detent) when loaded onto the XF.

The problems here are twofold:  Any Performances on the XS that were edited as such can be expected to sound different on the XF.  In my case, I had a new cutoff value (’22’) on a particular Part routed to AS2 on the XS.  On the XF...it’s defaulted to ‘0’ since there’s no longer Common control or view.  Two identical patches, but sounds vastly different on the XF. Because of the plethora of available options for routing parameters to AS1/2, and the XS being able to save ‘edited’ parameters there (as Common, and with specified Parts) the door is wide open for big surprises and lost Performance data when transferring one’s custom Performances from XS to XF.

Secondly, if you loaded your XS Performances onto the XF and no longer had access to your XS, the chances are you would never know why some Performances (if edited as such) sound different since your old assigned common parameters to AS1/2 are no longer visible. Additionally, your ability to find your previous edited information could be lost unless you find another XS (or do PC editing?). I was fortunate in that I have both keyboards available to compare all my Performances.

As I’ve said privately to several folks at Yamaha already, this alone needs to be addressed in regard to their claim that the XS sounds/performances are fully compatible on the XF.  In Performance mode....they are not.

Back to the update:  I’ve written privately to anybody that I think can be helpful at Yamaha in affecting change on this issue.  I’ve called Yamaha Tech support, who replicated the problem and promised to forward it accordingly.  I took that person’s advice, as well as a previous poster, who suggested the YamahaSynth site for an additional step, and sent a couple private messages there.

The short of it is, I found out the issue is well known. While there seems to be some dispute amongst the Yamaha-associated folks as to which functionality is actually better, there seemed to be no dispute that the implementation was not ideal in the XF and there is room for improvement.  I’m told that the issue is being raised again, on my behalf, and supposedly just in time for a Japan meeting.  Ultimately, I’m told, it’s up to the Yamaha engineers in Japan to decide to make the OS fix, and I’ll have to just be patient and hopeful.

I used to see Yamaha US post here from time to time.  I don’t know if they would be different individuals from whom I’ve just spoken to.  Either way, it would be nice to have them comment here and let users know in a public way that they recognize the situation and are involved in seeking a remedy.

So I’ve done all I can, and am likely at the cusp of being a pain in the neck to several individuals.  If any other users or potential purchasers of the XF have similar concerns on the issue, I can only suggest that they lend a hand to the cause by vocalizing and hoping that strength in numbers will finally get action.  Thanks to all for the previous replies and suggestions…

obrother - 10 September 2014 12:14 AM

[...]I used to see Yamaha US post here from time to time.  I don’t know if they would be different individuals from whom I’ve just spoken to.  Either way, it would be nice to have them comment here and let users know in a public way that they recognize the situation and are involved in seeking a remedy.[...]

As far as I know, Yamaha_US is Athan Billias.

As to getting recognition from Yamaha of a “situation” posted about on Motifator, I’m not sure how successful you’ll be. See this for insight into why I lack confidence in that happening:
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/index.php/viewthread/473252/

I follow what you’re saying and it looks like I’ve come full circle as far as contacting all the requistite people and being the best pain I know how.  Thanks much for that post though....

Hey 5pin,
I spent some time last evening on this at the Synth Site, with zero results, unable to post. I’m not surprised given that I had to sign in every time I changed a page. From reading some posts there, it appears as though there are struggles in the function of the website. I also had a friend attempt to post and he had the same result, thus ruling out user error on my end. I’ll keep after it.

stoneb3 - 12 September 2014 01:17 PM

Hey 5pin,
I spent some time last evening on this at the Synth Site, with zero results, unable to post. I’m not surprised given that I had to sign in every time I changed a page. From reading some posts there, it appears as though there are struggles in the function of the website. I also had a friend attempt to post and he had the same result, thus ruling out user error on my end. I’ll keep after it.

Thanks for the (continuing) effort. It’s kind of surprising that Yamaha hasn’t gotten their act together there. They probably will, eventually…